posted March 25, 2020 11:43 PM            

I feel I got a deeper understanding of saturn conjunct pluto in how it impacts us collectively and how it manifests in my own natal chart by thinking these things through with you guys and your input.

posted March 25, 2020 11:46 PM            

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
Belage -- yes, I began digging into the hard numbers myself that come from various countries and reading articles by experts on them. They do not match what is being spread by governments, health agencies, and 90% of news organizations. They are basing messages and policies on worst case scenarios -- [b]Saturn-Pluto fear/control measures and on a totally mistaken notion that the virus can be stopped. Norovirus still kills 200,000 people a year (according to wikipeida) yet we never even hear about it anymore.

Expect this to go on longer than you'd normally expect because in the mundane global astrology Saturn & Pluto's conjunction gets a wider orb (maybe up to 7°) than it does for transits to our natal charts.

If you read other posts at my blog like The Truth About Rx Drugs (a practical how-to) you'll see that I know how to sift through scientific study numbers and see past their misleading effect in how they are framed -- and wish I'd done that from the very start on this. I'm not saying there is any intentional attempt by CDC, local governments, or media, but fear colors things very dark!

You'll notice that what I referenced in my blog entry you read is actual medical statistics filtered from their raw state into their refined state as presented by experts in contagious diseases. I previously had not done that and regret sharing the medium.com article by the computer guy saying the spread was geometric (doubling every 3 days). It isn't. That was worst-case-scenario speculation based on raw data. Italy has given the world absolutely terrible raw data because of how it records cause of death (as well as for its very old population, its air pollution in N.Italy which is the worst in Europe). They'll probably have to change that after this.

The fear-based worst-scase-scenario assumptions and response is exactly you'd expect from Saturn conjunct Pluto -- a fear-based spasm of control measures.

That astrological factor does not represent the virus or infection itself, but the circumstances surrounding its emergence and the governmental and economic and public response to it.

The factor of Uranus semi-square Neptune has a lot to do with the confusion and delusion surrounding this phenomenon of wrongly framed information, misleading speculation, etc. It is a dynamic like a mini-square in which Uranus (collective mind, publicity) is in tension with Neptune (imagination, speculation). They are not in harmony with that aspect and it takes special effort to sift through what is real and what is not.

Even more so with the 15-degree aspect in declination between Saturn & Neptune. That puts people in an anxious state who have a difficult time thinking positively and thinking critically. Attempts at critical thinking for those who are not practiced at it in these kinds of situations tends to turn into an exercise in pessimism and anxiety, which worsens health from a psychological angle. It can literally affect the body negatively. And that is what we're seeing.

I don't care what your politics are, with the Saturn-Pluto conjunction, we need to be very watchful about government overreach -- and be prepared to communicate limits to government policies rather than simply submit to them in a state of ignorance and fear. In the rush of all this it becomes very, very easy for people to engage in the worst kind of peer pressure and scapegoating of individuals who refuse to obey some of these micromanaging orders about what we can and cannot do with our own bodies because of what 'might' happen to someone else.

The Governor of my state, Oregon, has pushed the limit in her executive order of this week, attempting to mislead people into "Stay home" when there are constitutional problems with such things. in a free society. Look at how we are literally being told to not touch our own faces. This is surreal, and bizarrely reminiscent of fundamentalist fear-based attitudes about things like masturbation in which children are told not to touch that, its dirty.

That's all I'll say for now.

[/B]

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posted March 26, 2020 12:41 AM            

1981- that is 40 years ago.

I was looking into it and then come across these articles:

-Coronavirus Lessons From Veterans of the AIDS Epidemic

-'Unresolved grief': coronavirus presents eerie parallels for many Aids advocates

-How To Survive Yet Another Plague
I Lived Through The AIDS Epidemic. Here’s How To Live Through Coronavirus.

Haven't read them but interesting titles....

Thanks for following up with my question about the last cycle of Saturn conjunct Pluto, interesting.

posted March 26, 2020 03:43 AM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

I agree saturn likes to learn through experience and grow wiser so saturn will want to learn from all this and good will come out of it, I mentioned that in my super long previous post. Some of the speculations I made about this are:

What is coming up a lot lately is the realization as a society that we depend a lot on other countries for important day to day things bc we don't make our own stuff, this in turn is leading to supermarkets been super low on supplies as we are not getting supplies from china we rely on right now. Even with Medicine, India and China make the medication we rely on.

On one hand this is life, we are interdependent on one another bc one person or nation cannot do it all (or can each nation be fully self-sustainable??) but this puts nations in a vulnerable position during times of crisis and maybe this is what is been tested, can WE count on each other during times of crisis and show up for one another or does this depend on how much is our survival at stake? OR do we need to re-structure/transform some things so we are not in such a vulnerable position during times of global crisis because global crises will happen periodically. On another hand, each country been fully equipped to provide for themselves what they need is a win win for everyone too and sounds super empowering for all nations to be in this position.

Its interesting because Pluto thrives on vulnerability, it transforms through it by getting burn by giving others power over you and trusting others with the power to destroy you which leads to you getting burn and this leads to self-mastery as you learn to not give away too much of your power but saturn likes to not feel vulnerable, likes to feel in control and be prepared so is an interesting clash of energies that are conjuncting each other right now. We are getting burned right now collectively and I will tell you this, Saturn will want to learn from this!!!!!! You know it!

.

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Excellent analysis. Will businesses and countries learn to diversify their sources of supplies? That could be one important lesson for the global economy.

I think another lesson is also at play. This virus mortality (Pluto) has been hard on older folks (Capricorn) especially those with co-morbidities, while relatively sparing the young (Jupiter). It asks, what is healthy aging?

People are living longer lives due to the advances in medicine. Great! But this has lulled many people into thinking that relying on pills and medical interventions is the way to grow old, instead of actively bettering their health by improving their diet and making definitive lifestyle changes. This misplaced reliance strains the healthcare system in ways that are becoming unsustainable.

Case in point, Why haven't we tackled the obesity epidemic yet? Why are we still having an epidemic of diabetes GLOBALLY? diabetes was confirmed as The global epidemic when Neptune entered Pisces in 2011. Obesity and diabetes are illnessess that could be prevented and even solved with lifestyle changes. We cannot blame the government for this. The government does not hold your hand and shove foods down Your throat. We must take responsibility for our choices of food and activity. Instead lately, while these epidemic continue unabated, there has been the burgeoning movement called "fat acceptance"which seeks to normalize obesity. Neptune in Pisces is contributing to that and asking us to stop stigmatizing obese people, and I am all for it, but health cannot be disregarded without paying a price.

What the lesson is trying to say is, healthy aging does not come from pills and medical interventions. Healthcare is an crucial adjunct but it is NOT health. Health comes from years of daily or consistent practices of proper and responsible eating of wholesome foods, properly moving your body through some sort of exercise, avoiding excesses like drugs and excess alcohol, getting proper rest and sleep, and leading a healthy lifestyle. And don't wait when you are old to start doing those things, after most of your vital organs are already impacted. Start when you are still young, it will make your old age so much healthier.

posted March 26, 2020 11:27 AM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

This time the fear is bigger wouldn't you say? I think BACK THEN they felt AIDS was something impacting gay people when the pandemic started so I am thinking this contained the fear and it didn't spread like is spreading now. Now its playing out quite differently and the thinking is that this can hurt ANYONE regardless of age or anything.

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That thinking is incorrect. We already know this virus discriminates and doesn't just kill ANYONE regardless of age or anything. It has already been documented that it disproportionately kills the sick old, not the healthy adults, and practically no children. Yes, there will be a few young casualties here and there, but these outliers do not change the basic numbers.

posted March 26, 2020 12:47 PM            

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Originally posted by Belage:
That thinking is incorrect. We already know this virus discriminates and disproportionately kills the sick old, not the healthy adults, and practically no children. Yes, there will be a few young casualties here and there, but these outliers do not change the basic numbers.

So where does the fear comes from?

One rationale for the fear was that hospitals would be overwhelmed with the lack of ventilators and respirators and it would cause physicians to decide who lives and who dies. Yes, it is a terrible dilemna for them to have to make as it is happening in Italy. But it still involves a relatively small number of people relative to the general population.

So, again, what is the fear based on?

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posted March 26, 2020 01:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
That thinking is incorrect. We already know this virus discriminates and doesn't just kill ANYONE regardless of age or anything. It has already been documented that it disproportionately kills the sick old, not the healthy adults, and practically no children. Yes, there will be a few young casualties here and there, but these outliers do not change the basic numbers.

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I am talking about the perception back then that AIDS only impacted gay people which was not true but that was the perception. The perception now is that it can kill anyone, it may mainly kill people with health issues and the elderly yes but it can kill anyone. There isn't this perception that only the gays can get it.

posted March 26, 2020 02:28 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Lets go back to keeping this thread astrological though as I think that is important to honor that.

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I thought the thread and discussion stayed on astrological tracts.

Should I have said that the numbers of who is being disproportionately killed by the virus do not back up the fear and that the fear is a symbol of the Pluto/Saturn fear mongering aspect? I thought it was implied.

posted March 26, 2020 02:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I am talking about the perception back then that AIDS only impacted gay people which was not true but that was the perception. The perception now is that it can kill anyone, it may mainly kill people with health issues and the elderly yes but it can kill anyone. There isn't this perception that only the gays can get it.

But we are moving away from astrology at this point.

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We are comparing 2 different fears brought on by the same astrological configurations happening in different signs and decades apart. I don't agree that this is moving away from astrology.

And I don't agree that the perception was that only gays could get it. I was alive and an adult back in those days and I can assure you that the fear was across the board. Because of AIDS fear, by 1989, the days of free wheeling sex were over and using condoms started to become a regular and expected part of sexual interactions between responsible people who didn't know their status.

posted March 26, 2020 05:05 PM            

Though shall reap as though sow.

Saturn is associated with payback time. It governs our Karma.

Mars conjunct Saturn and it will get worst in next few days.

Wait for Jupiter to transit Aquarius (Dec 2021) - when things may improve.
Aqua is about opennes.

posted March 26, 2020 05:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
I thought the thread and discussion stayed on astrological tracts.

Should I have said that the numbers of who is being disproportionately killed by the virus do not back up the fear and that the fear is a symbol of the Pluto/Saturn fear mongering aspect? I thought it was implied.

But I may have to be redundant and reiterate what seems obvious to me in each paragraph.

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Is implied I agree but we need to make it explicit so the thread does not get closed.

posted March 26, 2020 05:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
We are comparing 2 different fears brought on by the same astrological configurations happening in different signs and decades apart. I don't agree that this is moving away from astrology.

And I don't agree that the perception was that only gays could get it. I was alive and an adult back in those days and I can assure you that the fear was across the board. Because of AIDS fear, by 1989, the days of free wheeling sex were over and using condoms started to become a regular and expected part of sexual interactions between responsible people who didn't know their status.

As for the perception of who COVID can kill, I think by now most people in the developed countries know it is the older generation who is more at risk of dying. That is why spring break students were still seen partying at the beach. they were not worrying about themselves.

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Hi Belage, thanks for pointing this out. I am ignorant about the AIDS epidemic aside from having heard of some conspiracy theories about it a few years ago.

Yes younger people are also less likely to worry about stuff like this as when you are young you think you are invisible in some level, the part of the brain that rules impulse control (e.g. the prefrontal cortex) keeps developing until our mid 20s that is why insurance goes down when you turn 25 so that plays into it as executive functioning skills and impulse control and decision making skills are all in the domain of the prefrontal cortex.

When it comes down to it I personally strongly believe that we should go back to resuming business sooner than later and my SAG rising conjunct Neptune which squares my moon in Pisces with moon ruling my 8H feels why control this so much, just let things play out how they are meant to and don't shut down society over it. Then my saturn which rules my 2H feels is a terrible idea to on top of this make the economy more vulnerable and have a bunch of people lose their jobs but then I second guess myself and think maybe the leaders know what they are doing and I am been too chill.

Essentially my thinking is more in line with yours, is just bc my chart is so mutable I second guess my thinking/intuition and go back and forth.

posted March 26, 2020 06:35 PM            

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Originally posted by teasel:
Is anything going on with Neptune right now?
[URL=http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/louisiana-pastor-defies-coronavirus-order-draws-over-1-000-people-n1168501?cid=googlenews-usnews&fbclid=IwAR1HiyIJp48z2Co7HOGYa-nzoPlkUrD9b oE4Zr]http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/louisiana-pastor-defies-coronavirus-order-draws-over-1-000-people-n1168501?cid=googlenews-usnews&fbclid=IwAR1HiyIJp48z2Co7HOGYa-nzoPlkUrD9 boE4Zr[/URL] 5pZiWYDqgRbF8uSAcYbSA

My county had its first death today (Summit county, Ohio). A 70+ man. My dad is a 70+ man making deliveries all over this county. I’ve asked him to please use the Xclear nasal spray that I bought, but I don’t know if he will. He is careful with everything else.

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Tr moon is conjuncting Uranus today so that fits pastor rebelling against authorities, this is a type of protest he is doing.

posted March 26, 2020 06:40 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Tr moon is conjuncting Uranus today so that fits pastor rebelling against authorities, this is a type of protest he is doing.

Tr URANUS conjunct MOON are semisquare NEPTUNE right now too.

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Thank you.

I just came to post this: it’s predicted we are almost a month away from our peak. http://www.news5cleveland.com/news/continuing-coverage/coronavirus/while-measures-to-flatten-the-curve-have-been-effective-ohio-could-see-8-000-new-covid-19-cases-per-day-at-peak?f bclid=IwAR3VqBQrfychxvPPLwDkrnJyQVDrEbAFHYZwtryoQn0cC8l2eK73gZiumvs

posted March 26, 2020 07:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Is implied I agree but we need to make it explicit so the thread does not get closed.

Maybe when we comment we can put under it what aspects we feel are impacting behavior and social phenomenon been discussed even if it seems a bit redundant because some people will conclude we are moving away from keeping this thread astrological and I want to avoid that. I am not saying do it every single time, but try to do it when you can so there is a record we are keeping it astrological.

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posted March 26, 2020 07:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Hi Belage, thanks for pointing this out. I am ignorant about the AIDS epidemic aside from having heard of some conspiracy theories about it a few years ago.

Yes younger people are also less likely to worry about stuff like this as when you are young you think you are invisible in some level, the part of the brain that rules impulse control (e.g. the prefrontal cortex) keeps developing until our mid 20s that is why insurance goes down when you turn 25 so that plays into it as executive functioning skills and impulse control and decision making skills are all in the domain of the prefrontal cortex.

When it comes down to it I personally strongly believe that we should go back to resuming business sooner than later and my SAG rising conjunct Neptune which squares my moon in Pisces with moon ruling my 8H feels why control this so much, just let things play out how they are meant to and don't shut down society over it. Then my saturn which rules my 2H feels is a terrible idea to on top of this make the economy more vulnerable and have a bunch of people lose their jobs but then I second guess myself and think maybe the leaders know what they are doing and I am been too chill.

Essentially my thinking is more in line with yours, is just bc my chart is so mutable I second guess my thinking/intuition and go back and forth.

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posted March 26, 2020 08:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52056586? SThisFB&fbclid=IwAR3D2Ly5AtsfVpT4h2AxGJuIifgOzGXffzyymVp7z-oIuGR9vq5Waed2sQk

We are now number one in confirmed cases, and that’s with inadequate testing.

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The article also points out that the US has a lower fatality rate than Italy and China, US has better health care and a lot less pollution than both Italy and China.

John Hopkins is right now reporting the following statistics on their site:

There are 60 million people in Italy (Google)
*JH reports 8,215 deaths in Italy

There are 1.38 billion in China (Google)
*JH reports 3,169 deaths in China

I am sorry but this makes it clear to me that CHINA is lying about their numbers, they have way way way more people than Italy and yet are reporting A LOT less deaths?, China is overpopulated and in the cities they live super compacted. This is why is hard to trust the statistical analysis generated by the numbers from China, it doesn't add up.

To keep this astrological I am quoting Kannon and his input on Uranus semisquare Neptune as I was talking about data and how some of the data may be misinformation. I personally feel the data from China is an example of this:

"The factor of Uranus semi-square Neptune has a lot to do with the confusion and delusion surrounding this phenomenon of wrongly framed information, misleading speculation, etc. It is a dynamic like a mini-square in which Uranus (collective mind, publicity) is in tension with Neptune (imagination, speculation). They are not in harmony with that aspect and it takes special effort to sift through what is real and what is not."

posted March 26, 2020 10:03 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I do feel a lot of compassion right now for China actually because I think I understand why their numbers are not adding up and why they are suppressing their numbers. They need to go back to work because they are concerned about surviving and are collectively lying bc they want to go back to work for survival reasons and if they are still in "crisis" cannot go back to work. That is just my hunch and if I am right I get it, If I was in their shoes under that pressure, concerned about surviving and with how things operate in their country I would lie too and collaborate in suppressing information.

Moon in Pisces.

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But that just shows that people shouldn’t be going back to work here, or going to church, doesn’t it?

posted March 26, 2020 10:10 PM            

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Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
^ China did a damn good job at containing it tho, rest called it "flu" , had the measures been taken around then it would have never taken this form, now both china and the rest are in the same damn boat!!

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Trump was apparently briefed on it in December. Some conservatives are blaming the democrats for his being distracted by impeachment. It’s like six degrees of Kevin Bacon: somehow, everything is the fault of the Democrats.

Three months ago, he knew. Now we’re living a Michael Crichton novel.

posted March 26, 2020 10:19 PM            

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Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
^ China did a damn good job at containing it tho, rest called it "flu" , had the measures been taken around then it would have never taken this form, now both china and the rest are in the same damn boat!!

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I am not sure that China has contained it bc the numbers don't add up, they have wayyyyyyyyyyy more people than Italy yet have reported A LOT LESS deaths than Italy. If you are saying that this is bc China did a great job containing it, perhaps but I feel highly skeptical they truly are over this crisis and think they are lying about their numbers so they can go back to work.