posted May 05, 2008 11:27 AM              

I feel you might be on to something.

I'm still turning these things over in my mind a lot.

Trying to figure out how much we are controlled, or in control.

I think, to be completely in control of ourselves, would makes us "Masters".

But, until then....it seems tough, and complicated.....

For example, tiredness makes most people grumpier than usual....
Should we strive to be joyful and bouncy, even in these moments?

I would really love to be a "Master" some day.

As a friend of mine always use to say.....

posted May 05, 2008 12:01 PM              

Actually, HSC, your proposal of a board working towards finding a political and ideological common ground would be more fitting the board title "Global Unity."

posted May 05, 2008 01:09 PM            

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You may see it that way. I think we are all children still.
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hmmm this maybe explains better your general position.

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What do you mean? Explain.

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I'll try to better explain mine.

I have a 19 month old son. I am responsible for his behavior. He is completely innocent of blame. I answer for him.
I also have a 15 year old stepson. He is learning (please God!) to accept responsibility for his actions. It's the duty of his parents to help him understand this, to teach him to do this. If they neglect this obligation, they will answer for it. When he is an adult, he must come to understand it himself. If he then refuses, then he will answer for it.
I'm 37. I am not a child, I am an adult. I am responsible for myself. I stand alone before God. Nobody answers for me. I answer for me.

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Thank you for sharing so much of your journey, TINK.

I am listening and trying to understand,
and what I hear is that you are just stating a basic truth,
and it is not essentially different from what I believe.

When we put any energy into the world,
we ought to be mindful of the laws of cause and effect, and the laws of karmic return.
We may not always receive our just desserts; for our efforts and/or appropriate to our abilities.
But we ought to be mindful that every action has some reaction, and there are many factors unknown to us.
What we do know that everyone is sensitive and the world is a volatile place.
So, we ought to be prepared to expect anything at all.
This is, to me, an ideal for which we should all strive,
since it is, as we know, a basic and unavoidable law.

On the other hand, I think you are presenting a broad and extreme example,
with the consequence that you make a very broad and immaterial point.
As we interact with the world, and deal with the subtleties of particular situations,
I dont think we can rely on any single law or principle to guide us.

How we react to other people is intricately bound up
with the practice of personal responsibility.
This includes any responsibility we may feel to speak against injustice.
Being true to myself, and living in a way that I see as mature,
entails speaking out against things that I think and feel are wrong.

Of course, I try to accept the fact that,
in return for this, I must endure any manner of consequence.
But, while I work on controlling the reactions of my lower nature,
I yet must continue to object to the negative behavior of others;
which I define as "negative" because of their empiric history of inciting response.

The scientific method deals with very concrete and specific experiments.
When a particular cause has been repeatedly identified with a particular effect,
we can safely theorize that there is some efficient correspondence.
So, I think, a practical person endeavors to adapt,
not only himself, in order to measure and mitigate his reactions,
but also, he makes efforts to adapt the circumstances of his world,
in order to prevent a particular cause from being present, and, so, to avoid a particular effect.
And when I say "avoid", I am not talking about avoiding the consequences of our actions,
I am talking about adapting our actions in order to transmute our world.

posted May 05, 2008 01:10 PM            

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But ultimately we are all shortsighted and horribly flawed creatures, constantly falling and growing.
I prefer to give everyone the freedom to make mistakes,
and to be human and vulnerable and relatively unconscious.

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Of course we are flawed! And I understand that we all make mistakes. But if I blame my mistake on someone else, if I refuse to take responsibilty, how do I improve? How do I refine my actions without first looking inward? If it's always the other guys fault, then I have no need to look inward. Taking responsibilty is the first step in a long journey of mind and soul refinement.

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I hear you.
And you make a very good point.
I just wonder why you make it so often.
I think there are many points to make,
and many dots to connect.

I may wrongly assume that you are missing other things,
but I think you encourage that, by reducing every situation to this one pet point of yours.
I see much more complexity in things, and I try to express all that I see.
I think there is truth and beauty in simplicity, as well as in complexity.
But I think, while gleaning a universal truth or two,
we should also make efforts to create a more peaceful and understanding world,
by removing those obstacles which exist,
not only in our misconceptions, but in the world, as well.
They are not mutually exculsive, and just because you alter your perception
doesnt mean that there is nothing to be altered in the world.
Do you agree with what I have just said?

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"Lofty". Maybe it's a relative term. High expectations get me up in the morning. When I was a girl and would whine and cry and feel bad for myself and say "I can't do it!", a wise woman, who has since passed, often said to me "Try anyway. A man's reach should exceed his grasp ... or what's a Heaven for?".

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That is beautiful.
I'm so glad you had someone like that,
to nurish your mind with frequent guidance.
I had no such wise men or women to learn from.
So, it is nice to hear it now from you.

In many ways, I do try to exceed my grasp.
Not always, of course, but in many ways.
Witness the present thread, lol.
You were the loudest voice saying it couldnt be done,
but now I am increasing my hope that it may yet be done.
And I think it is something that has been coming for a while now.
It just took someone with a Cappy Ascendant and 10th house emphasis to implement.
Capricorn is, after all, the sign of manifestation,
and it is natural and healthy for people with this energetic orientation
to involve themselves in the world and in constructing viable,
practicable solutions, for people dealing with real problems.

Capricorn is on your fourth house, isnt it?
Maybe that has something to do with the fact
that you are best able to manifest practical results
by going within, into the roots of your being (4th house),
and that the practical wisdom you bring is to show others,
as best you can, what it means to go within and work within.
We all have incredible and miraculous lessons to teach.

posted May 05, 2008 01:18 PM            

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Good thoughts, HSC and I admire you for trying to find a common ground. All we can do in this world is try, right?

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Absolutely. Thank you.

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Actually, HSC, your proposal of a board working towards finding a political and ideological common ground would be more fitting the board title "Global Unity."

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That's certainly true, and I think it is what was originally intended when the board was named.
We have only to return to the source of that noble instinct which inspired the name.

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Our common ground is that we all love this country, the United States of America, and we all want what we feel is best for it and the world. We just have different ideas of how that should be achieved.

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Perfectly said.

posted May 05, 2008 02:10 PM            

Re the angular Mars:

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Zala, I was talking about people who come here, not people who dont.

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I merely wanted to point out that I have an angular Mars and I am rarely “drawn” to GU. I take my warrior spirit and use that energy where it will do more good, instead of becoming embroiled in stalemates here…..

TINK ~

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I thought about zala, but she left FFA so probably isn't interested in GU.

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posted May 05, 2008 02:28 PM            

Well HSC, the problem with your view comes under personal preception of sensitivity. To add a seperate forum on political matters would not help to create a more sensitive environment if people are allowed to have their freedom and say on matters. If you truly want to see another prespective then you have to let people say their peace in the manner they choose. Offcourse, you like me and other members of their forum are very well welcomed to assert you delibiration in your own manner.

The basic rules on this forum apply upon the same basis as other forums one of which being the "no personal attacks" clause (though we have crossed the line here way too many times on that little diddy...) And people, being refered to as a leftist does not counts as a personal attack. Its a preception of another person's view on your actions and offcourse you can counter their argument accordingly. I know most are gonna cast Jwhop as the main culprit but I can name so many others who have acted in the same manner. So I presumed that this little forum was cast aside as a more... "free for all" unload for everyone (Hey, Randall has been quite generous with letting people duke it out here for quite a long time and people should count their lucky stars that they have had an opportunity to discuss things freely.)

However I am all up for the idea of adding a forum moderator to this place instead of placing another forum on the board. Making another forum makes life difficult for moderators to keep an eye out everywhere so its best to have one semi-moderated forum instead of having potentially two forums upon which I can hypothesize through the behavior of most members upon political discussions that we are bound to see scuffles.

Its not a case of sensitive or insensitive but choice. If you do not agree with a given point, present your argument as thus, say why you disagree and leave it at that.

posted May 05, 2008 02:31 PM            

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Hmmm, I must have misunderstood. You listed a few people who DO come to GU (Tink, etc) and hypothesized that they were “drawn” here by their angular Mars (you wrote: “Most everyone who posts here is likely to have an angular Mars, or Mars in aspect to the luminaries.”
I merely wanted to point out that I have an angular Mars and I am rarely “drawn” to GU.

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I understand.

I was suggesting that the strong mars is one factor.

I apologize if I worded it too generally.

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I take my warrior spirit and use that energy where it will do more good, instead of becoming embroiled in stalemates here…..

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I completely understand.

But I've always had a fondness for lost causes myself.

Who knows, I just might be able to see a new solution
that would allow us to have a political board at Lindaland
where those stalemates are not quite so commonplace,
without disrespect to the views and wishes of anyone.

What do you think about the idea of a second GU, with stricter rules?

posted May 05, 2008 02:32 PM            

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And if HSC and BR and AG feel uncomfortable about it, we're back where we started.

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Oh, I don't mind who he installs as a Moderator. I think its safe to say that he'll defend the status quo. He likes Jwhop's moderation of anyone of the Center or Left as it is, so he may as well install Jwhop as a Moderator.

posted May 05, 2008 02:40 PM            

Welcome.

I appreciate you taking part and sharing your views.
I do think you are pressuming some things here.
You showed up a little late in the game is all.
You can still play, of course, but you need to catch up first.

The issue of different people's perceptions and tastes
is precisely what we are discussing in this thread.
We are attempting to respect the rights of everyone.

Furthermore, we have moved beyond basic principles, and are trying to be very clear about what behaviors we find unacceptable. "Leftist" is not a bad word, in my book. But I do think that some other words go too far. It is all a question of degree. We need to be very clear here, and try to focus on discussing and defining the particulars and realistic implications. As juni has quoted, "The devil is in the details".

Speaking very specifically,
I think someone's right to post without being subject to direct insults,
should not be subservient to a person's right to call everyone who disagrees a "braindead twit".

This is what the situation here is all about.
Let's discuss this and try to find a common ground.

Your suggestion of another moderator, who will uphold the rules, is a good one.

But I do not think anyone is going to grant a moderatorship
to someone on this forum who is going to delete posts with inflammatory language.

posted May 05, 2008 02:46 PM            

I think we can all agree that making Jwhop a moderator of the new forum would not be step forward, but a step to the side, or while standing in place. I think we may be able to agree that it is time for something else. But this is a tender period of transition, so we all need to be sensitive to one another's input, and have a little faith in everyone else's ability to surprise us, if we want anything new to come of this. We cant get stuck in the same patterns of defensiveness and cynical apathy. I really think we can create something good here, if we are willing to work together.

posted May 05, 2008 02:49 PM            

To solve a mystical problem, it is sufficient to state it clearly, and so, reveal its mystery.

What is made clear is that nothing we thought is as clear as it seems.

This is the nature of the deepest mysteries: that they remain mysteries.

posted May 05, 2008 02:53 PM            

tink:

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I will take 100% full responsibility for everything I have done and said. I will not protest that my words are the result of your provocations. You may or may not have inspired them, but I allowed them to happen. I am responsible for them.

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Yes!! thank you tink.

I and I alone am responsible for my reactions or actions. Period. I will and do not say you caused me to do anything.

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This is what I mean about blaming others for our actions. (tink)

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I understand, and we all do it. Do you see that, too?(HSC)

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Having raised a Cancer daughter and a Scorp son , I know all of the "you made me do it`s" that you can come up with

The two are self sufficent adults now and have (thankfully) learned their behavior is their limitation & responsibility, not the worlds. So, I do know it is possable to stop saying "we are children" so I can blame you if I want.

Yes, we all fall short of the Glory of God but please let us be responsible adults and take our social responsibility serious.

juni

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted May 05, 2008 02:59 PM            

Absolutely. It starts with ourselves.

And I'm about to show you what one man can do.

posted May 05, 2008 03:00 PM            

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The issue of different people's perceptions and tastes
is precisely what we are discussing in this thread.
We are attempting to respect the rights of everyone.

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Ah but wasn't there a wise man who once said, "You just can't please everyone ?" I have to disagree with your position of trying to make a forum which restricts certain view points based upon a purely subjective charactersitic. What we need to apply is the concept of Utalitarianism. And congruently, if you take Randall's current forum formula, its operating upon the very basis of Utalitarianism where everyone has a free right to express their opinions accordingly.

As I said in my previous post, the forum can function better if we were to eliminate the growing problem with personal snipes that seem to surface within discussions and that would mean placing a moderator within this place.

posted May 05, 2008 03:01 PM            

I edited my response to you quite a bit.

Could you please reread it?

posted May 05, 2008 03:01 PM            

Sorry I am not in that lump.

I generally spend most time in the Florida room than my basement

HSC this is getting boring already for me.

posted May 05, 2008 03:05 PM            

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Sorry I am not in that lump.

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Why not? What do you mean?

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I generally spend most time in the Florida room than my basement

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Huh? What's "the Florida room"? You mean outdoors? Do you live in Florida?

And what does your basement have to do with anything?

Also, why the red face?

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HSC this is getting boring already for me.

Ta da.

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I understand.

It requires a lot of patience for me to talk to you, as well.

Of course, I'm sorry to see you go, but I'm sure we'll manage.

Take care,
hsc

posted May 05, 2008 03:21 PM            

Just re-read your response.

I agree to a point but I have personally maintained a providence upon which I believe that everyone has a right to express their opinions accordingly and thus I personally take opinions for what they are; A personal prespective of the author alone.

Yes, I agree, placing a phrase like "Brainless twits" or the like does not makes an argument any more congruent then it is and it doesn't really helps to move a discussion along but rather degenerates into a shouting match rather then constructive exchange to ideas. Thus I can certainly place such words within a verbal attack category depending upon the context they are used in. What some people see as a formaility, I personally see as a necessity; especially when we are dealing with political issues.

So its all down to how the situation escilates actually. Thus that is why I say a moderator would be appropriate for this place just to keep an eye out on things.

posted May 05, 2008 03:31 PM            

What is the matter with you guys?