posted May 05, 2008 03:32 PM              

quote:

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Also, why the red face?

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Good question!

I've often wondered that myself- I must say I took to using one too a few times!

posted May 05, 2008 03:34 PM            

quote:

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Ah but wasn't there a wise man who once said, "You just can't please everyone?"

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Do you suppose it was the same wise man who said:
"Good Fences Make Good Neighbors,"?

To quote a post from page 1 of this thread:

quote:

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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_2_114/ai_106981965

"Good fences make good neighbours":
history and significance of an ambiguous proverb -
The Twenty-First Katharine Briggs Memorial Lecture, November 2002

Contrary to popular opinion, those seemingly plain and simple truths called proverbs are anything but straightforward bits of traditional wisdom. A glance into any proverb collection reveals their contradictory nature: "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" but "Out of sight, out of mind." Proverbs are not universal truths, and their insights are not based on a logical philosophical system. Instead, they contain the general observations and experiences of humankind, including life's multifaceted contradictions. But matters are even more complex, since the meaning of a proverb depends on its function in a given context (see Krikmann 1974; Mieder 1989a, 20-2). As Kenneth Burke observed, metaphorical proverbs are strategies for dealing with situations: "In so far as situations are typical and recurrent in a given social structure, people develop names for them and strategies for handling them" (Burke 1941, 256). By naming social situations, proverbs express generalisations, influence or manipulate people, comment on behavioural patterns, satirise societal ills, strengthen accepted beliefs or comment on practical social conduct (Goodwin and Wenzel 1979; also in Mieder and Dundes 1994, 140-60). Above all, proverbs are used to free complex situations from ambiguity. However, as proverbs as analogies are of their nature ambiguous, that is, open to interpretation, they are of a vexing and paradoxical analogic ambiguity themselves (see Lieber 1984; also in Mieder and Dundes 1994, 99-126).

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Now, lets get down to some practical business, what do you say?

quote:

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I have to disagree with your position of trying to make a forum which restricts certain view points based upon a purely subjective charactersitic.

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You misunderstand then.

I am not suggesting that anyone's viewpoint be restricted,
but that certain words, -- namely, direct insults,
have proven by experiment to be inflammatory to many people.

Certainly, all standards are somehow subjective,
but the effort here is to combine our subjective views,
and to try to reach a consensus which honors everyone's rights.

I am not suggesting that anything be taken away from anyone.
People who want to express themselves free of these ethical restrictions
(which the VAST majority of us here do not feel the least bit restricted by)
are perfectly free to do so right here in the original Global Unity.
On the other hand, anyone who wants to share their views,
without being met with a flurry of bad names and insults,
is equally free to do so on another board set aside for that purpose.

So, you see, everybody wins.
Everybody gets what they want.

I dont understand why there is even resistance to this.
If it is not something you want, or something that would make a difference to you,
then you really dont have much at all to say about it, as far as I see it.
The only thing you can really do is stand out of the way of the people who do want it,
and who are not trying to compromise you or your rights in any way,
and who are asking nothing whatsoever of you but that you stay where you are,
keep on doing what you are doing, and let us do what we want to do too.
I think this is not too much to ask of reasonable people.
And I have faith that we have reasonable people here,
or I would not be "wasting my breath".

quote:

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What we need to apply is the concept of Utilitarianism. And congruently, if you take Randall's current forum formula, its operating upon the very basis of Utalitarianism where everyone has a free right to express their opinions accordingly.

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I dont know about Utilitarianism.

I know about respect and common decency.

quote:

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As I said in my previous post, the forum can function better if we were to eliminate the growing problem with personal snipes that seem to surface within discussions and that would mean placing a moderator within this place.

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Yes, if we were determined to change GU,
that would be a good way to do it.
But we are not looking to change GU.
I think that is what most people object to,
and I've tailored my own desires to accord with their wishes.

quote:

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But it seems like people were quick to catch up on the idea and its already been suggested within this thread and thus I totally back that idea up. We can always try a less stringent modus oprendi for this forum as compared to LLC forum.

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You may make that proposal, if you like.

But, as I said, many people seem very intent on keeping GU as it is,
and I am equally intent on respecting their wishes.

posted May 05, 2008 03:45 PM            

HSC, did you think it was an insult when you accused US military personnel of being murderers?

HSC, did you think it was an insult when you accused by implication, by attachment, by adhesion or by enabling, the wives of US military personnel of being complicit in murder?

HSC, did you think you were insulting the 210,000,000+ Americans who were in favor of removing Saddam Hussein when Congress authorized military force? Are we, those who wanted to see the murderous bast@rd gone and who were in favor of using force; are we not also guilty of murder? Didn't you also accuse us of being complicit in murder?

Now HSC, your mask has been ripped off. Going into damage control by suggesting you have the moral or spiritual authority to dictate anything here and bring about a peaceful forum is laughable.

It's even more laughable that you would put yourself forward as moderator for this forum. It's laughable but it was predictable.

Your are the primary mover of the shiit storm here which you started with lying inflammatory accusations you pulled straight out of your ass.

posted May 05, 2008 03:50 PM              

quote:

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What do you mean? Explain.

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It means I'm trying to get a handle on your position and that statement helped orientate me a bit.

quote:

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When we put any energy into the world,
we ought to be mindful of the laws of cause and effect, and the laws of karmic return.
We may not always receive our just desserts;
for our efforts and/or appropriate to our abilities.
But we ought to be mindful that, every action has some reaction,
and there are many factors unknown to us, but we know
that everyone is sensitive and the world is volatile place.
So, we ought to be prepared to expect anything at all.
This is, to me, an ideal for which we should all strive,
since it is, as we know, a basic and unavoidable law.

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Excepting the part about not always receiving our just desserts, I agree. I wish that more care and thought preceded my words and actions. This is one of many failings. I haven't mastered the laws of spiritual diplomacy. Not by a long shot. I've only just begun to appreciate its importance.

The scientific principle of cause and effect. You seem to imply a certain lack of control with this one. If I drop a ball it falls to the ground. It is bound to that particular law of cause and effect we call gravity. I am not a ball. I am a thinking, self-conscious, individual spirit. It is my obligation as such to disentangle my conditioning and claim my spiritual birth right of a free (read unencumbered) will. Again, if I waste time complaining that someone has forced my hand and bemoaning my fate, I won't go about the business of disentangling those nafs.

quote:

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On the other hand, I think you are presenting a broad and extreme example,
with the consequence that you make a very broad and immaterial point.
As we interact with the world, and deal with the subtleties of particular situations,
I dont think we can rely on any single law or principle to guide us.

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It was perhaps a broad example, but I don't think it was extreme. It's very much a part of my daily life.
As to the single law or principle ... maybe there is, maybe there isn't. If there is one, you'll need to go elsewhere to find it.

quote:

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How we react to other people is intricately bound up
with the practice of personal responsibility.
This includes any responsibility we may feel to speak against injustice.
Being true to myself, and living in a way that I see as mature,
entails speaking out against things that I think and feel are wrong.

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If I choose to react this way, yes.

posted May 05, 2008 03:52 PM            

quote:

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HSC:
Just re-read your response.

I agree to a point but I have personally maintained a providence upon which I believe that everyone has a right to express their opinions accordingly and thus I personally take opinions for what they are; A personal prespective of the author alone.

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That is beautiful.

I want you to have a place like that.

I understand that.

But I think it is clear that there are some restrictions already.
You cannot post private emails, for instance. Do you object to that?
Has it resulted in a warped expression of anyone here?
Sure, it demanded some people to meet a higher standard,
but that is not even what I am proposing.
I am not demanding but inviting people, those who wish to,
to partake of something a little different.

Religious orders, monasteries, ashrams, go by very strict rules,
and, yet, these are places where people go to heal and speak with the wise.
I believe that such order can create an atmosphere with less distractions,
where it will be easier (for most of us) to focus on the real issues,
and to get out of our own way, and out of everybody else's way.

What do you think about ashrams? Should none be built?
Should chaos be the rule no matter where you go?
What if someone wants to express themself by punching you in the nose?
That person would merely be expressing their unrestricted viewpoint, right?
And it would be your responsibility to understand and accept them, right?
But that does not mean you cannot help to create institutions dedicated to a peaceful discourse.

quote:

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Yes, I agree, placing a phrase like "Brainless twits" or the like does not makes an argument any more congruent than it is and it doesn't really helps to move a discussion along but rather degenerates into a shouting match rather then constructive exchange to ideas.

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Very well said, and precisely my point.

quote:

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Thus I can certainly place such words within a verbal attack category depending upon the context they are used in.

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Right. Like, when we use them in the context of discouraging their use, as you just did.

quote:

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What some people see as a formality, I personally see as a necessity; especially when we are dealing with political issues.

So its all down to how the situation escalates actually. Thus that is why I say a moderator would be appropriate for this place just to keep an eye out on things.

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I hear you, man.

It sounds like you and I want the same things.

I honestly dont think it is going to happen here.

Will you join me in promoting the creation of an alternative GU?

We could really use your support.

posted May 05, 2008 04:02 PM            

quote:

---

I am not suggesting that anyone's viewpoint be restricted,
but that certain words, -- namely, direct insults,
have proven by experiment to be inflammatory to many people.

Certainly, all standards are somehow subjective,
but the effort here is to combine our subjective views,
and to try to reach a consensus which honors everyone's rights.

I am not suggesting that anything be taken away from anyone.
People who want to express themselves free of these ethical restrictions
(which the VAST majority of us here do not feel the least bit restricted by)
are perfectly free to do so right here in the original Global Unity.
On the other hand, anyone who wants to share their views,
without being met with a flurry of bad names and insults,
is equally free to do so on another board set aside for that purpose.

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And if were to take the argument on a theoretical level then you would be quite right HSC but then again we go back to the old conflict of what can be considered an insult. For what its worth, I do agree with the "brainless twit" example you gave within your previous argument and I personally have witnessed just how downhill a topic can go from its intended purpose. I for one personally prefer a more open-ended discussion and forum but I can see how it causes difficulties for supressing personally aimed snipes. And that goes for everyone.

And well its up to the general forum population to voice its opinion on the matter HSC; If majority of the forum members like the forum as it is then its their vote HSC. Thus I come back to the concept of Utalitarianism.

quote:

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Again, if I waste time complaining that someone has forced my hand and bemoaning my fate, I won't go about the business of disentangling those nafs.

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posted May 05, 2008 04:04 PM              

quote:

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When I overlook a stone in my path, and trip, and hurt myself,
I may gradually learn to look for the stone,
so that I will be careful to step around it.
Or I may choose to walk all the way on the other side of the road,
and only to visit the shops on the other side of the road.
But I may also remove the stone from the path, or cut a new path,
so that I need not confront and remember it every time I pass that way.
And, in so doing, I would be clearing the path for all my fellow travellers;
for those who are mindful of the stone, and to whom it makes no difference,
and also for those who are not so mindful, and who are likely to dash their foot.
Furthermore, it may even prevent the stone from being scuffed and worn away at over time.

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Exactly my point. In your story "I" realizes and considers the cause of his tripping and takes a pro-active stance. This is the sort of behavior which produces growth ... and it's preferable to just yelling at the stone for blocking his way, or weeping because the stone made him cry, yes?

quote:

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I hear you.
And you make a very good point.
I just wonder why you make it so often.
I think there are many points to make,
and many dots to connect.

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It's not a "pet point" and I've only just made it. I stated my opinion that a greater sense of personal responsibility might make GU a more palatable place for all of us and you disagreed. I do see that there are many issues here, but I feel this is basic and would go a long way in cleaning up the mess we're all in. If you'd rather not, that's fine. I'm not hurt or offended or, quite frankly, surprised. Not everyone subscribes to the concept of personal responsibilty.

I believe obstacles exist for other reasons then their own removal. Obstacles are a fulcrum. I try to welcome them. They're gifts.

Nothing to be altered in the world? hmmm Now that is a complex issue! I think my altered perception might change the reasons I wish to alter the world. And I think that reason, or motive if you will, is a matter of great consequence. Do I speak from a place of balance? Do I stand in accordance with the Will of God? Or am I dumping my personal shiit on an unsuspecting world? The Muslims speak of the lower and Higher Jihad. Presuming to fight the lower before the Higher is an extremely dangerous course of action, for both the individual and the world. This has been made painfully evident, hasn't it?

quote:

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That is beautiful.
I'm so glad you had someone like that,
to nurish your mind with frequent guidance.
I had no such wise men or women to learn from.
So, it is nice to hear it now from you.

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She wasn't perfect. I've learned as much from her errors as from her wisdom. You've told me that you don't wish for guidance. You've claimed you will find your own way.

quote:

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In many ways, I do try to exceed my grasp.
Not always, of course, but in many ways.
Witness the present thread, lol.
You were the loudest voice saying it couldnt be done,
but now I am increasing my hope that it may yet be done.

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I was the loudest voice saying what couldn't be done?

quote:

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Capricorn is on your fourth house, isnt it?
Maybe that has something to do with the fact
that you are best able to manifest practical results
by going within, into the roots of your being (4th house),...

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ahh now see that's not fair. You know that stuff is my weak spot.

This has been a pleasant conversation, but I think I should stop here. I'll reread what you've written and hopefully continued contemplation on the subject will further refine my rough edges.

posted May 05, 2008 04:05 PM            

quote:

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HSC, regarding your desire to limit insulting language here:
HSC, did you think it was an insult when you accused US military personnel of being murderers?

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Yes, I do. And I apologize.

Please see my response to TINK on page 1 of this thread.

quote:

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HSC, did you think it was an insult when you accused by implication, by attachment, by adhesion or by enabling, the wives of US military personnel of being complicit in murder?

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Yes, if you word it that way.

I would seek to avoid the term "murder".

And it is difficult to say who is "complicit".

Complicity presupposes that the person suspects or knows that they are in the wrong,
but is too lazy or selfish to make efforts to resolve their doubts, or to be in the right.

quote:

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HSC, did you think you were insulting the 210,000,000+ Americans who were in favor of removing Saddam Hussein when Congress authorized military force?

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Insulting them when, how?

I think many, if not most, of those people,
ultimately changed their minds when new information was brought to light.
I certainly have nothing critical to say about the ability to receive new evidence, and to rethink your positions accordingly.

Are you insulting all those Americans who changed their minds?
What about the majority of Americans who give Bush a poor approval rating?

quote:

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Are we, those who wanted to see the murderous bast@rd gone and who were in favor of using force;
are we not also guilty of murder? Didn't you also accuse us of being complicit in murder?

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See above.

quote:

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Now HSC, your mask has been ripped off.

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LOL

Yes, and I unmasked myself.

You are a little late, my friend.

quote:

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Going into damage control by suggesting you have the moral or spiritual authority to dictate anything here and bring about a peaceful forum is laughable.

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I'm not claiming any authority, but, rather,
I am attempting to invite discussion from all sides.
I am certainly not in favor of dictating anything.

quote:

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It's even more laughable that you would put yourself forward as moderator for this forum. It's laughable but it was predictable.

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I just figured that, if I was going to make the suggestion,
I ought to put my money where my mouth is, and volunteer for the job.

quote:

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You are the primary mover of the **** storm here which you started with lying inflammatory accusations you pulled straight out of your ass.

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I'm sorry you feel that way, Jwhop.

take care,
HSC

posted May 05, 2008 04:09 PM            

TINK, thank you for your thoughtful replies.

I will be happy to make thorough responses when I'm able.

I really need to take a little break now.

posted May 05, 2008 04:12 PM            

quote:

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acoustic, unless you've seen Jwhop's chart don't even go there.

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posted May 05, 2008 04:54 PM              

quote:

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you still seem quite miffed when your own ideas are not swallowed whole.

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Well, I'm not and wasnt really.

Blame "seeming quite miffed" on my Leo planets.

quote:

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This thread was going well, and I think we had, and still have, a chance at something higher.

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Something higher has been taking place this whole time and throughout this whole ordeal.

posted May 05, 2008 05:25 PM            

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you still seem quite miffed when your own ideas are not swallowed whole.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm not and wasnt really.

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That's good.

I admit, I was totally fooled.

quote:

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Blame "seeming quite miffed" on my Leo planets.

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I wish it were that simple.

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This thread was going well, and I think we had, and still have, a chance at something higher.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something higher has been taking place this whole time and throughout this whole ordeal.

Sorry you dont see it that way.

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You think you're such a clever little madam, don't you, Tara?

Of course I see it that way. I have been seeing it that way all along. Remember?

And just because I see it, doesnt mean I cant see us reaching for something higher still.

You seem so quick to find fault lately, and you read with no care at all.

But then, I suppose you read much as you speak, as you think, and as you are; without caring.

posted May 05, 2008 05:34 PM              

You have everyone except yourself figured out.

Do you think that's really how it really works?

posted May 05, 2008 05:34 PM            

Curious as to how this has shaped up.

We know Randall said no. But we continue on ....

What is the "everyone" vote, yes or no?

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted May 05, 2008 05:36 PM            

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted May 05, 2008 05:39 PM              

quote:

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You know, it is infintely more interesting to disagree than it is to agree and that is why the world is in the state that it is today! And most of the time that fact is not acknowledged consciously.

I truly believe that most strife in life occurs due to a war of words, and if we were to look beyond the semantic shield we each wear from time to time, we would see that everybody wants the same things - love.

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posted May 05, 2008 05:51 PM            

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~