posted August 10, 2012 02:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Doomlord speaks 3 langauges. English is his 3rd language

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But it is my strongest.....but this TINY keyboard on my galaxy S is making writing a horribly difficult choice

posted August 10, 2012 03:06 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 03:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

No child, retarded person or handicapped person who cannot understand the Gospel, will go to Hell.
I am not even going to answer that stupidity, again.

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You might want to take some time to read Mr Grahams Official website: http://www.billygraham.org/spiritualgrowth_topics.asp?tid=68

As I had previously stated, I was also asking : "If they are not going to hell as you have stated, how are they going to get to the new testament version of heaven?

Because I'm sure any christian family among the 300,000 are contemplating the fate of their beloved based on the teachings of the bible"

This question has nothing to do with Billy specifically, I'm asking for clarification from a christian perspective... if these people are not going to hell, where are they going, are they going to some place that's even worse?

How can anyone think that the fate of 300,000 people or even one lone blind-deaf child is a stupid thing to contemplate.

posted August 10, 2012 03:41 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 03:47 PM            

How do you get there? What is your background?

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posted August 10, 2012 04:13 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 04:17 PM            

..but I can tell the future and you can't. So, you can do with that what you want.
I really don't have time to keep going round and round

i have no way of knowing whether you can tell the future or not. so in what way is this proof or persuasion of anything? what have you predicted that has come to pass?

+

and the question of THOSE WHO CANNOT KNOW the word of jesus, or god...being given a pass to heaven due to their ignorance...

posted August 10, 2012 05:16 PM            

-the idea of the Sinners Prayer
-the immutable Will of God

IE, unless the theoretical, or historical figure said the sinners prayer, publicly, they are doomed.

posted August 10, 2012 07:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
find myself wondering about some of the things that have been said above:

[b]..but I can tell the future and you can't. So, you can do with that what you want.
I really don't have time to keep going round and round

i have no way of knowing whether you can tell the future or not. so in what way is this proof or persuasion of anything? what have you predicted that has come to pass?

+

and the question of THOSE WHO CANNOT KNOW the word of jesus, or god...being given a pass to heaven due to their ignorance...

that would include masses of people who have never been exposed to said word, wouldn't it? in other words, not being christian or born again is the natural state of most muslims, other africans and many other peoples around the world...but i have never heard it suggested that all the "unsaved" are going to heaven. if they were what would be the point in trying to save them?[/B]

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posted August 10, 2012 07:12 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 07:37 PM            

also and again with respect, it is not really much of a stretch to foresee damascus becoming rubble at this point in time. it may not happen but it is not unlikely given current events.

this is why i asked if you had predicted any events that have already transpired, something we here could see as factual and not projection?

i guess what i'm trying to say is that there have been many supposedly accurate predictions made in the past, some in the bible, some by nostradamus, many by psychics down through time. what makes the bible the last word in this sense?

posted August 10, 2012 07:46 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 08:12 PM            

damascus was destroyed in the 13th century, by the way, and i would hazard a guess that the people of that time believed it was a sign of the end times. this is the problem with bible prophecy of this sort for me. preachers have been declaring the end times for centuries..

[edit: this is wrong! damascus has not been completely destroyed though it was, nearly, in ancient history. it was bagdad that was destroyed in the 13th century. still, we have had numerous "end times" throughout history..]

let me state here that i believe my faith is as strong as yours, though i do not settle on jesus as the only manifestation of god's way on earth.

posted August 10, 2012 08:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I don't mean to be rude Le Kuei but the stretch you have to take that people with disabilities would go to Hell, boggles my mind.

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Im not exactly clear on your question, I personally did not say I subscribed to the belief that such people go to hell. -nods-

I was simply following up on Faith's very ardent and clinical post on page 2, in referance to Ms Keller and how Christianity would address her issues.

Faith: I can't see any conclusion except that a person like Helen Keller, left untaught, would have to be regarded as doomed to hell by most Christian standards[]

Every time Biblical guidelines for salvation are applied to cases where it seems clear that a relatively innocent person won't qualify.

If that's how it works, why bother talking about these guidelines at all? Why bother devoting your life to salvation if the criteria are so murky?

Since you did not provide her with a satisfactory answer, I pointed her to what I would call a
a progenitor of Christianity/salvation in christ in these modren times, a Mr Graham.

Which somewhat demonstrated the predicament of Helen and the other deaf-blind people (some 300,000 souls... ).

When confronted with this situation ethically, from your christian perspective you pretty much refuted Grahams claims and offered a free pass solution.

As Katatonic then said : The question of THOSE WHO CANNOT KNOW the word of jesus, or god...being given a pass to heaven due to their ignorance... that would include masses of people who have never been exposed to said word.

This is a very astute observation which leaves the christian perspective in quite the predicament...

As a person on Mr Graham website asks:
http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage.asp?articleid=4990

I think people who believe in hell are just angry and want to see other people suffer.

Billy Graham writes, "If we truly believe in hell, our hearts will be broken and filled with love for those who deliberately choose to go there."

You see the problem here? Its actually affiriming what Kat says about those who do not know about Christianity and its hell/heaven duality, and will never make that choice because they cannot even know that the Christian choice exists (they are mentally ignorant of the choice)

By your own logic you are also affirming what you say is an automatic free pass (a person being ignorant of christian doctrine), which leaves only Christians facing the possiblity of hell by the very act of indoctrinating themselves into the religion in the first place...

As my agnostic Grandmother would say (Since you asked about my background): "Now thats a hot Potato!".

posted August 10, 2012 08:55 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 09:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
That sounds nice, Ami, but I don't see how doctrine comes into play with any of that.

Religion = magical incantations to summon God to inhabit one's body?

Doesn't seem to work like that.

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Well, that is the New Birth. I am just explaining it. That is all God holds me responsible for. I can't make someone accept it.

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posted August 10, 2012 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Im not exactly clear on your question, I personally did not say I subscribed to the belief that such people go to hell. -nods-

I was simply following up on Faith's very ardent and clinical post on page 2, in referance to Ms Keller and how Christianity would address her issues.

Faith: [b]I can't see any conclusion except that a person like Helen Keller, left untaught, would have to be regarded as doomed to hell by most Christian standards[]

Every time Biblical guidelines for salvation are applied to cases where it seems clear that a relatively innocent person won't qualify.

If that's how it works, why bother talking about these guidelines at all? Why bother devoting your life to salvation if the criteria are so murky?

Since you did not provide her with a satisfactory answer, I pointed her to what I would call a
a progenitor of Christianity/salvation in christ in these modren times, a Mr Graham.

Which somewhat demonstrated the predicament of Helen and the other deaf-blind people (some 300,000 souls... ).

When confronted with this situation ethically, from your christian perspective you pretty much refuted Grahams claims and offered a free pass solution.

As Katatonic then said : The question of THOSE WHO CANNOT KNOW the word of jesus, or god...being given a pass to heaven due to their ignorance... that would include masses of people who have never been exposed to said word.

This is a very astute observation which leaves the christian perspective in quite the predicament...

As a person on Mr Graham website asks:
http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage.asp?articleid=4990

I think people who believe in hell are just angry and want to see other people suffer.

Billy Graham writes, "If we truly believe in hell, our hearts will be broken and filled with love for those who deliberately choose to go there."

You see the problem here? Its actually affiriming what Kat says about those who do not know about Christianity and its hell/heaven duality, and will never make that choice because they cannot even know that the Christian choice exists (they are mentally ignorant of the choice)

By your own logic you are also affirming what you say is an automatic free pass (a person being ignorant of christian doctrine), which leaves only Christians facing the possiblity of hell by the very act of indoctrinating themselves into the religion in the first place...

As my agnostic Grandmother would say (Since you asked about my background): "Now thats a hot Potato!".

[/B]

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That, Lei Keui, is a good example of a strawman argument, is it Rev Graham that needs to explain this, or are you asking Christians who are here to explain it?

One cannot have it both ways.

posted August 10, 2012 09:25 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 09:32 PM            

AA has explained her doctrine. It is what it is and if one understands dogma, you will know it will not change one iota.

To poke at it will only keep the pot stirred and and wheels keep spinning.

While I value, understand and thouroughly enjoy what each has added to the conversation, perhaps a new thread where open discussion of all Holy Texts, questions and interaction is a good idea

posted August 10, 2012 09:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
That, Lei Keui, is a good example of a strawman argument, is it Rev Graham that needs to explain this, or are you asking Christians who are here to explain it?

One cannot have it both ways.

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I am not asking Billy Graham (and what I posted of him is not caricaturing what he seems to believe).

My questions were specifically tied to Ami Anne's responses to Faith's questions on the Christian perspective "special cases" like Ms Keller, and also her responses to Katatonic.

Since logical conclusion resulting from said discussion results in the throwing up of hands, and asking that I defer my questions to Billy...

I feel somewhat disappointed by the lack of Christians here willing to peruse it further. It was just getting interesting too

posted August 10, 2012 09:48 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 09:51 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 09:52 PM            

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