posted August 10, 2012 09:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I don't GET your question? What happens to Helen Keller when she dies? Didn't I answer that.

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Yes you did answer that previously, and now we have moved to this situation as a direct result of your answers -nods-

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:OK, anyone who had a disability or was a child i.e did not have the mental capacity to CHOOSE, would go to Heaven. Everything with God is about choice! If a person cannot choose from a disability, he would go to Heaven. Period End!

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"You see the problem here? Its actually affirming what Kat says about those who do not know about Christianity and its hell/heaven duality, and will never make that choice because they cannot even know that the Christian choice exists (they are mentally ignorant of the choice) "

"By your own logic you are also affirming what you say is an automatic free pass (a person being ignorant of christian doctrine), which leaves only Christians facing the possibility of hell by the very act of indoctrinating themselves into the religion in the first place... "

We are gone past Helen Keller...!

posted August 10, 2012 09:58 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 10:01 PM            

ALL people everywhere will be exposed to the Gospel? That means all people, everywhere, even in the corners of the jungle. God may come to them in dreams but every person will be allowed to make a choice--every person who ever lived.
The Bible says that. How?? I don't know, but I take the Bible to be true, as I believe it is Divine.

Do you have another question?

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posted August 10, 2012 10:05 PM            

Since I am dealing with two of them - one a born again in present life, I am talking about this.

Why don't we see this kind of fighting going on in other religions?

I've known 8 Born Agains my whole life and 7 of them were former drug addicts or alcoholics (one was a rape victim).

I am wondering why the Born Agains seem to be the most 'cut throat' and the ones that have been through some serious trauma. Trauma that has never gotten healthily resolved, but instead they just got "born again' and made everything 'alright'.

I seriously get nervous around these types of people. They will try to convince you with all their might that if you don't believe the way they do, youre damned to hell.

Why, unlike poeple of other religiions, can they not accept that Christ is not the ONLY WAY. (sorry, but He, it's not.)

posted August 10, 2012 10:08 PM            

Why is it so hard for them to understand that there are other Ways....other Paths for people......that WILL get them to a better place.

It's just so.....

i don't know...

posted August 10, 2012 10:08 PM            

Everyone makes his own choice. This is merely a discussion. There is no reason to be afraid of words.

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posted August 10, 2012 10:10 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 10:11 PM            

I'm not afraid of words.

I'm simply another child of God, saying what's on my mind. Please respect it.

posted August 10, 2012 10:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
The Bible says there is one way. That is our belief as Born Again Christians.

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posted August 10, 2012 10:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
I am not asking Billy Graham (and what I posted of him is not caricaturing what he seems to believe).

My questions were specifically tied to Ami Anne's responses to Faith's questions on the Christian perspective "special cases" like Ms Keller, and also her responses to Katatonic.

Since logical conclusion resulting from said discussion results in the throwing up of hands, and asking that I defer my questions to Billy...

I feel somewhat disappointed by the lack of Christians here willing to peruse it further. It was just getting interesting too

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Oh, I have no issue with pursuing such a line of reasoning Lei Keui, perhaps Ami A is not polished in such a discussion, while I'm quite veteran on such matters.

If one would care to restate ones query, perhaps my humble self can offer an answer directly from the Word itself?

posted August 10, 2012 10:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
I know. & it makes me sad.

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It is not sad T. It is life--here and in eternity.

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posted August 10, 2012 10:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
I realize you are having a discussion Ami. I'm joining in on it. That is all.

I'm not afraid of words.

I'm simply another child of God, saying what's on my mind. Please respect it.

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Sure, your POV is fine to be added to the mix.

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posted August 10, 2012 10:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:

Why is it so hard for them to understand that there are other Ways....other Paths for people......that WILL get them to a better place.

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Hello T -nods-

From a sociological point of view, by christian admission (all be it the views of those who know the doctrine well in our small community). That the spread of Christianity in our society, as one becomes assimilated into christian doctrine. This opens them up to the christian prospect of hell...

But all those outside the reach of the doctrine (both mentally, physically and sociologically), seem to get a free pass to "their" heaven!

Allegorically one cannot help but make the social comparison to the Borg!

Our way.. or the high way!

We may need Jean Luc Picard!

posted August 10, 2012 10:41 PM            

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posted August 10, 2012 11:21 PM            

I was a Calvinist for several years. I'm still convinced that Calvinism is the most purely biblical type of Christianity. The five points of Calvinism are commonly presented through the acronym TULIP.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Strict Calvinists believe in predestination. You are either elect (saved) or not, and God decided that before you were born. If you are elect, you will find God though irresistible grace. Becoming Biblically-oriented is the prerequisite for finding God; one who never gains access to the Bible is presumably damned, but "it's not our place to speculate" (ie think about unpleasantries.)

Calvinism is cruel, but at least it is perfectly clear and rigid.

What I've encountered with more sympathetic, modern Christians' viewpoints is the tendency to devise doctrine extemporaneously, based on "logic" or feeling, and that is very problematic.

NOT trying to pick on you Ami.

But it's common to hear stuff like, "We feel it is unfair that handicapped people should go to hell. Thus, they go to heaven."

Apart from the fact that the Bible never teaches that, that belief is cruelly preferential to those who are blessed with handicaps (and, in turn, granted a free pass to heaven.) In that scheme, being born normal might be regarded as a curse, because it opens the potential to burn in a lake of fire eternally...which was not even an option if one was blessed with severe retardation or in a deaf/blind condition.

Likewise, the notion that all children go to heaven is actually a little disturbing. There is zero incentive, then, to ever leave the safety of childhood. Pagan youth are heaven-bound until they reach adolescence, at which point all that abomination must abruptly end, or they go to hell.

What is so critical about adolescence, that one moves from being a protected innocent into a field where everything is of utmost consequence?

Why would a loving God set up this booby trap at the end of childhood, where suddenly one enters the danger zone?

I think "free passes to heaven" are not Biblical and not fair. If a loving God would definitely have compassion for a child and his or her lowly state of not understanding...why should He (or she ) have any less compassion for me, a person who tries to make sense of Christianity but STILL cannot?

posted August 10, 2012 11:24 PM            

quote:

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"By your own logic you are also affirming what you say is an automatic free pass (a person being ignorant of christian doctrine), which leaves only Christians facing the possibility of hell by the very act of indoctrinating themselves into the religion in the first place...

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posted August 11, 2012 12:37 AM            

I appreciate Ami's patience with me, I have no desire to tell anyone what to believe. I admire someones passion for their own beliefs, including Billy Graham. But I will damn sure ask questions of peoples beliefs when they socially clash with the stability of the human organism as a whole. I find most religions as a culture, to be socially destructive on closer inspection

Save yourself if you must, but allow others to do the same please, in whatever way they choose -nods-

Resistance is not Futile!, Species 8472 are completely immune to Borg Assimilation!

Species 8472 is a fictional extraterrestrial race in the science fiction television series Star Trek: Voyager. They inhabit another dimension called fluidic space.

posted August 11, 2012 01:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Hello T -nods-

From a sociological point of view, by christian admission (all be it the views of those who know the doctrine well in our small community). That the spread of Christianity in our society, as one becomes assimilated into christian doctrine. This opens them up to the christian prospect of hell...

But all those outside the reach of the doctrine (both mentally, physically and sociologically), seem to get a free pass to [b]"their" heaven!

Allegorically one cannot help but make the social comparison to the Borg!

Our way.. or the high way!

[/B]

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Uhm, nope, a Christian pov entails God doing the judging, if one rejects the gift of salvation, and wishes nothing to do with God.

Well gosh, what would one logically think will happen?

Over the yrs, I've learned a couple of things:

-Arguing on the internet over the nature of of the Divine is pointless

-People "get it" or they do not, their choice,

-Oh my, how people love Non Sequiturs

-Some folks, they have a spirit of leanness sent upon them tings of the spirit make no sense to them, there are reasons for this.

Strictly from my own pov, I could literally care less, one sails ones own boat.

posted August 11, 2012 01:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Thanks so much, Lei Kuei.

I was a Calvinist for several years. I'm still convinced that Calvinism is the most purely biblical type of Christianity. The five points of Calvinism are commonly presented through the acronym TULIP.

Strict Calvinists believe in predestination. You are either elect (saved) or not, and God decided that before you were born. If you are elect, you will find God though irresistible grace. Becoming Biblically-oriented is the prerequisite for finding God; one who never gains access to the Bible is presumably damned, but "it's not our place to speculate" (ie think about unpleasantries.)

Calvinism is cruel, but at least it is perfectly clear and rigid.

What I've encountered with more sympathetic, modern Christians' viewpoints is the tendency to devise doctrine extemporaneously, based on "logic" or feeling, and that is very problematic.

NOT trying to pick on you Ami.

But it's common to hear stuff like, "We feel it is unfair that handicapped people should go to hell. Thus, they go to heaven."

Apart from the fact that the Bible never teaches that, that belief is cruelly preferential to those who are blessed with handicaps (and, in turn, granted a free pass to heaven.) In that scheme, being born normal might be regarded as a curse, because it opens the potential to burn in a lake of fire eternally...which was not even an option if one was blessed with severe retardation or in a deaf/blind condition.

Likewise, the notion that all children go to heaven is actually a little disturbing. There is zero incentive, then, to ever leave the safety of childhood. Pagan youth are heaven-bound until they reach adolescence, at which point all that abomination must abruptly end, or they go to hell.

What is so critical about adolescence, that one moves from being a protected innocent into a field where everything is of utmost consequence?

Why would a loving God set up this booby trap at the end of childhood, where suddenly one enters the danger zone?

I think "free passes to heaven" are not Biblical and not fair. If a loving God would definitely have compassion for a child and his or her lowly state of not understanding...why should He (or she ) have any less compassion for me, a person who tries to make sense of Christianity but STILL cannot?

---

hmm, TULIP is man's doctrine, and flawed at that, this is one of the reasons why one should search for oneself instead of relying on acronyms in the place of at least a basal knowledge of the Word.

posted August 11, 2012 06:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
I know that they flood the prison system too and try to gain followers that way. ........or "save" people, I guess?

Why is it so hard for them to understand that there are other Ways....other Paths for people......that WILL get them to a better place.

It's just so.....

i don't know...

Forceful.
Demeaning.
Fear based...

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There ARE other ways of being Christian besides "born again".

Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, Non-denominational, Melkite Catholic, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.

You don't have to adhere to one path of Christianity to be a Christian.

No one person or group is the supreme authority on Christianity or religion. The only person with those rights and privileges is God.

And frankly, there ARE other theories besides "only Christians go to heaven". One is universalism. I'm on the fence about what I myself believe on who goes where, but frankly, it's really not a focus of my spiritual journey. My focus is on my own self, my own spirituality, and what I do. Only God has the right to say who goes where or to decide such thing. Neither I nor anyone else has any right to make such determinations, in my opinion. True, there are some that I believe should go to hell (rapists, other sex criminals, and animal abusers), but I can't say with certainty that God will decide it that way, or that God doesn't have another plan/logical reasoning for deciding it differently. The only one who knows that is God, not I.

One of the biggest problems that I have with "you only have to believe" is that frankly some people who believe in Jesus do some pretty horrible things. Simply believing that Jesus was the messiah and rose from the dead is not enough, in my opinion, to really be fully Christian. You have to live it out. Otherwise, what is Jesus but some kind of spiritual bumper sticker or cute little pin that you wear--something that only stays on the surface, or permits you to be a member of a social club? You can't just say that you believe in Jesus and then go and act in ways that are counter-Christlike. I'm not talking about basic sinning, either--everyone falls into that at some point. What I mean is that you can't be hateful, rude, unkind to others, oppressive, etc. That just does not compute.

Julian of Norwich, one of my favorite theologians, expressed a hope that God would sort everything out in the end. That's what I myself hope. I believe that God is compassionate and intelligent, more so than any other being. I believe that God will decide best, and that God's choice in the matter will be sound and reasonable. I don't believe that any of us have the right to speak with authority about their knowing the mind of God and about knowing how people will be judged--I consider that to be blasphemous. Only God knows how God will judge, and only God is really qualified. Period.

I don't believe for a minute that God is some kind of monster or sky bully. We in my denomination say at every service that God knows what is in our hearts "and from God, no secrets are hid".

posted August 11, 2012 07:49 AM            

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posted August 11, 2012 07:54 AM            

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posted August 11, 2012 08:21 AM            

quote:

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There ARE other ways of being Christian besides "born again".

Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, Non-denominational, Melkite Catholic, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.

You don't have to adhere to one path of Christianity to be a Christian.

No one person or group is the supreme authority on Christianity or religion. The only person with those rights and privileges is God.

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Here we are talking to and about the Christian that gets all the press. The doomsday, hellfire and brimstone literalist. People find humor in watching the literalist circle around themselves giving a redundant answer to the same question worded differently. On the surface it is humorous but deeper it is sad. Sad because one sees the peace and joy missing from their lives. The one literal answer fits all mentality .

What press do you see for the non literalist / follower of the Christ who lives in peace and harmony? How many Christians are familiar with the large fragments of the Hymn of Jesus? . No drama, fear or bold claims. No press or noise on that type of Christian so the world in general only gets ONE picture of what it is to be a Christian.

The baby gets thrown out with the bathwater.
Padre,

quote:

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Then you know what "born from above" really alludes to

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As a student of Holy Texts and the works of all Faiths` Mysticism; s/he who tastes knows.