posted August 11, 2012 08:25 AM            

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posted August 11, 2012 09:42 AM            

quote:

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I was a Calvinist for several years. I'm still convinced that Calvinism is the most purely biblical type of Christianity

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My son is a Lutheran Minister and the only difference I am aware of in their doctrine is Calvanist believe Christ died only for the elect and Lutheran stresses that salvation is independent of merit and worthiness, arguing that it is a gift of God’s sovereign grace.

Both are fundalmentalist and it can/is a cruel dogma and I agree with your statement .

Both literalists yet different approachs. No wonder Christianity is viewed with a raised eyebrow.

TULIP in the Mystical realm has a different Intention:
Whatever be the theological creed of the mystic, he never varies in declaring this close, definite, and actual intimacy to be the end of his quest (God/Allah). “Mark me like the tulip with Thine own streaks,” says the Sufi

posted August 11, 2012 10:39 AM            

The Non Born Again Christians seem the Bible as figurative. Most think God is done with Israel. They have no allegiance to Israel.

The Born Again Christians think there is a literal Born Again experience with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit

The non BA believe this is figurative, not literal

The BA believe there is one way to God and Heaven. This is through Jesus

The Non BA's believe there are many ways to God. All good people will go to heaven.

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posted August 11, 2012 11:31 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Uhm, nope, a Christian pov entails God doing the judging, if one rejects the gift of salvation, and wishes nothing to do with God.
Well gosh, what would one logically think will happen?

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No, I don't not know what will happen if one holds that point of view. Are you reversing the Christian perspective to return to a point in the discussion where those who are "outside the reach of the doctrine (both mentally, physically and sociologically)" are thus dammed to hell?

Your apparent reasoning, seems to allude to that if a person rejects, or is otherwise incapable of accepting the Christian doctrine of salvation, that they do not get a free pass, and the alternative would be the lake of fire?

This is a blind-deaf persons fate by Christian standards as you logically see it?

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Over the yrs, I've learned a couple of things:

-Arguing on the internet over the nature of of the Divine is pointless

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Really, why is that exactly? How is that different from talking to someone about the divine in a public forum, a town hall, a persons table over dinner? It is never pointless to question the nature of the divine! For in questions comes answers, in answers emerge knowledge and to understand knowledge is to have the wisdom of the divine itself. How dare you make lite of the people in this thread who are asking for answers...

I have learned from studying the past, when those who seek to question the divine, without the protection of 1000's of miles and a computer screen betwixt themselves and those they question. Oh how the pious do tremble when they child of logic and rational thought dare question their pre-supposed divine authority. They burn, they come with fire and stones, the scrape the skin off with oysters shells, they drag the child from their home and murder their innocence because they choose to seek the wisdom of the divine.

Has history thought you nothing of the ways of Christianity? (And most other Religions)

No! This format (the Internet) for humanity, of asking questions of those who claim to know the path to the divine is the greatest gift at humanities disposal. Now they are forced not to pick up rocks and throw at the child of reason, but to muster their own intellect in defense of their proclaimed divine authority.

posted August 11, 2012 11:37 AM            

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posted August 11, 2012 11:58 AM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
The Bible says that all men will have a choice.

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What verse, Ami?

@jupiperb: to Sufi tulip

@ Lei Kuei:

I'm loving your posts.

quote:

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It is never pointless to question the nature of the divine!

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Amen to that!

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How dare you make lite of the people in this thread who are asking for answers...

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posted August 11, 2012 12:00 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
What verse, Ami?

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It says "All people will have a knowledge of God" None will have excuse. Try to Google it. I can't remember where it is. I think it is the New Testament. If you can't find it, I will help you.

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posted August 11, 2012 12:09 PM            

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posted August 11, 2012 12:35 PM            

New Living Translation (©2007)
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For the secrets of God from the foundation of the world are appearing to his creatures through intelligence, even his power and his eternal Godhead, that they will be without a defense,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
From the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse:

American King James Version
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

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posted August 11, 2012 01:23 PM            

we have fundamentalists in all the abrahamic religions. why are they different from the others, i have to ask?

and in reopening my bible and starting at the beginning, i have already, in the first few chapters of genesis come across a stumbling block for all the "one god" believers...

posted August 11, 2012 01:39 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
the thing that sticks for me is that it is not only christians who believe thus. islam and judaism also consider themselves the only way, the way to heaven...though branches of each consider one's divine purpose to be the creation of heaven "on earth"...even the lord's prayer talks about this!

we have fundamentalists in all the abrahamic religions. why are they different from the others, i have to ask?

and in reopening my bible and starting at the beginning, i have already, in the first few chapters of genesis come across a stumbling block for all the "one god" believers...

god himself saying, that upon eating of the tree of knowledge, adam and eve have "made themselves as ONE OF US" ie, god is not claiming to be the only god. how do people miss this in the very beginning of the bible?

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Prophecy is the answer. The Bible is the ONLY Book for all time which can predict the future with exactitude of time and place--in many cases

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posted August 11, 2012 02:01 PM            

quote:

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god himself saying, that upon eating of the tree of knowledge, adam and eve have "made themselves as ONE OF US" ie, god is not claiming to be the only god. how do people miss this in the very beginning of the bible?

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kat, they don`t miss it and thus begins the confusion of a literal translation of the Bible. As it ties in , the two stories of creation in Genesis is also puzzling or contradictory to most.

posted August 11, 2012 02:21 PM            

The apple /disobeying God/ the curse is all about separation. Jesus came to restore men back to God, hence reversing the separation and making man one with God, again, as was in the beginning. That is the story of the Bible, from beginning to end.
When people understand the Bible, it holds together from the very first word to the very last. There are no parts that go against other parts. It is a unified whole. That is another Hand print of God on it, as it holds together even though it was written over thousands of years by many different authors.

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posted August 11, 2012 02:41 PM            

but speaking of separation, i tend to agree with J krishnamurti here:
“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”

posted August 11, 2012 02:48 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i was speaking of the reference BY GOD to the existence of MULTIPLE GODS. i understand the apple metaphor.

but speaking of separation, i tend to agree with J krishnamurti here:
“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”

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posted August 11, 2012 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i was speaking of the reference BY GOD to the existence of MULTIPLE GODS. i understand the apple metaphor.

but speaking of separation, i tend to agree with J krishnamurti here:
“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”

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kat, indeed. all Mystics agree as so eloquently penned by arabi

O marvel! A garden amidst the flames!

My heart has become capable of every form:
It is a pasture for gazelles
And a monastery for Christian monks,
And a temple for idols,
And the pilgrim's Ka'ba,
And the tablets of the Torah,
And the Book of the Qur'an.
I follow the religion of Love:
Whatever way my love's camel takes,
That is my religion, my faith.
-- Ibn Arabi

posted August 11, 2012 03:09 PM            

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posted August 11, 2012 03:21 PM            

One leads to love, compassion and contentment and the other to judgement , alienation and worrying.

posted August 11, 2012 03:23 PM            

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posted August 11, 2012 03:24 PM            

Juni sees it her way. Anyone can ask either person questions, as they choose.

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posted August 11, 2012 04:53 PM            

There is plenty of debate still wide open here

No reason we should stop anytime soon -nods-

posted August 11, 2012 06:04 PM            

Becky Fischer: It's no wonder, with that kind of intense training and discipling, that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I wanna see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth!

posted August 11, 2012 06:07 PM            

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posted August 11, 2012 06:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
heard of a film called Jesus Camp (2006)? here is a quote from one of the leaders filmed for it.

[b]Becky Fischer: It's no wonder, with that kind of intense training and discipling, that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I wanna see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth!

[/B]

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I agree 100%

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