posted May 18, 2015 09:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I think it would be very difficult to determine which biological changes are due to trauma they received themselves, and what are truly innate.

So, it would be irresponsible to cut straight to the view that anyone is BORN an abuser.

With respect, you would not have had the insight to support my healing. That is clear.

Why you are pointing out you are "certainly not my therapist" is baffling, considering you informed me I was a "classic case of Stockholm Syndrome".

That sure looks like a diagnosis.

If you are no longer a therapist, then you have a PERSONAL responsibility.

Which I guess can be harder when you are traumatised yourself.
I know, because I've been there.
And even now, I have to watch this very closely, that my own perceptions do not colour my work with clients.

Their journey is THEIRS.

What I have for them is empathy.
But THEY direct the process, I merely create the conditions for them to heal themselves.

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So manipulative and passive-aggressive! Don't take this path.

It is a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome and I know you will soon see it and get rid of it and not let this man win. I see this strength in you

posted May 18, 2015 10:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
So manipulative and passive-aggressive! Don't take this path.

It is a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome and I know you will soon see it and get rid of it and not let this man win. I see this strength in you

I will now step out of this thread, I think I really said everything I have to say about this and I don't want other people such as Bella to feel discouraged to share their own experiences or opinions, since I sometimes tend to overdo it with my opinions. I hope however my effort will help you someday, somehow; I was here because I care.

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Unbelievable.

You have "diagnosed" me again.
Right after saying this is not your field.

You are very clearly not qualified to make that diagnosis, and I hope you reflect long and hard before working with any survivors of trauma.

Someone who cares would not throw ill-informed diagnoses at individuals who have achieved a level of healing you refuse to understand.

I'm not even convinced you meant well now, LeeLoo.

You have no care for the damage you have caused here, only your agenda, whatever that was.

posted May 18, 2015 10:41 AM            

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posted May 18, 2015 12:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
The OP, which you said was disturbing - was written from *his* perspective.
i.e. he "thought" he loved her, he "thought" they had a relationship", he "treated her like" a partner etc.
She is describing his own sick perspective on things - or the way she believes *he* saw that relationship.

She is not describing the -reality- of him being an abuser.
But rather, his twisted "perception".
As she has said to you many times, she understands that his behaviour was abusive.

I agree that - theorising re: what [b]does (or does not) go on in the mind of an abuser (or assessing the synastry of an abuser-victim relationship)... is not a topic for a child or for an (adult) victim of abuse whose wounds are still wide open.
And I would hope that a child does not come across this topic at all, or any other topic like this online --- and that an (adult) victim of abuse who cannot discuss this with some detachment, has the self-protective mechanism to stir clear of such sensitive topics.

But, as I said previously... it would be impossible to censor all topics of this nature. People *need* to talk about these things. Many victims need to talk about their perspective and their perception on things, as well as the way they *personally* healed.
As a person who sees truth and meaning in astrology, I completely understand why - looking back on things, a person who was abused would want to analyse their synastry with the abuser (to be able to understand present and past-life issues).[/B]

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posted May 18, 2015 01:17 PM            

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posted May 18, 2015 01:28 PM            

Thank you Odette for illustrating this so clearly.

And thank you to all other posters who understood also.

posted May 18, 2015 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Please read the OP.

I stated that I included "love" asteroids because what astrology may regard as "love" is not always the case in reality.
As it was NOT with my stepfather.

Bluejay mixed up astrology with further attempts to manipulate my perception.

You see LeeLoo, one thing I learned, inside-out, is to know when I am being manipulated.

I learned that from the best, I'm sure you understand.

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Voix, I was in no way trying to manipulate you. Honestly, I was really hurt by the harsh way that you responded to what I wrote. I don't understand what it was that warranted such a response, but it obviously struck a nerve. I was trying to stay on topic by commenting on astrological placements, and what energies were present between the two of you. Those were my observations of the synastry.

Every time I see Neptune in synastry (especially when it's your most exact aspect) my first thought is that there is a tendency for one or both people to want to see the person in a positive light. It creates a feeling of empathy between two people. I was commenting specifically on your statement that in his mind he thought that he loved you, and was engaging in a loving relationship with you. I'm sure it has helped in your healing to understand him as a wounded person, as I'm sure he was. However, from the outside looking in, it's impossible for me to believe that he thought he was having a loving relationship with you. You wrote in another comment that he didn't know what love was, so maybe in his warped perception he did think that. That being said, earning the victim's trust and making them feel loved is what child molesters do, and it changes that child's perception of the relationship.

My observations were based on your synastry and the way that you described the relationship dynamic between the two of you. I think that you do have a great deal of empathy for him as a wounded man. My personal opinion is that you are more sympathetic and forgiving than he deserves, but people have different ways of dealing with pain and healing from it. I also think the fact that he's dead(like in Gabby's case) might make it easier to empathize and make peace with him, knowing he can't hurt anymore children.

posted May 18, 2015 04:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Bluejay:
Voix, I was in no way trying to manipulate you. Honestly, I was really hurt by the harsh way that you responded to what I wrote. I don't understand what it was that warranted such a response, but it obviously struck a nerve. I was trying to stay on topic by commenting on astrological placements, and what energies were present between the two of you. Those were my observations of the synastry.

Every time I see Neptune in synastry (especially when it's your most exact aspect) my first thought is that there is a tendency for one or both people to want to see the person in a positive light. It creates a feeling of empathy between two people. I was commenting specifically on your statement that in his mind he thought that he loved you, and was engaging in a loving relationship with you. I'm sure it has helped in your healing to understand him as a wounded person, as I'm sure he was. However, from the outside looking in, it's impossible for me to believe that he thought he was having a loving relationship with you. You wrote in another comment that he didn't know what love was, so maybe in his warped perception he did think that. That being said, earning the victim's trust and making them feel loved is what child molesters do, and it changes that child's perception of the relationship.

My observations were based on your synastry and the way that you described the relationship dynamic between the two of you. I think that you do have a great deal of empathy for him as a wounded man. My personal opinion is that you are more sympathetic and forgiving than he deserves, but people have different ways of dealing with pain and healing from it. I also think the fact that he's dead(like in Gabby's case) might make it easier to empathize and make peace with him, knowing he can't hurt anymore children.

I was motivated only by a desire to help, not manipulate your perception as you said. I took those allegations very personally, and I'm only writing this because I wanted a chance to clarify where I was coming from.

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OK Bluejay.

It is possible that I misread or misinterpreted what you wrote.

I am truly sorry if this is the case.

What happened on this thread hurt me deeply, and I am still recovering.
It is possible I did indeed miss a genuine poster. I am so sorry if this is the case.

I will go back and read your response, and respond accurately.

EDIT: I am also sorry that I hurt you.
I never meant to hurt anyone, quite the opposite, but I accept I did.

posted May 18, 2015 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Bluejay:
As I said in my first response, I think Neptune is playing a large role in this synastry. Neptune tends to make people gloss over ugly qualities in others. I'm not trying to offend you Voix, but I feel that the way that you view him is a result of his emotional manipulation not progress made through therapy. I think what was/is concerning to many of the people that have commented, myself included, is the description of a "sexual relationship" between a child and grown man. A child cannot consent to such a relationship, nor can they be a confidante to adult relationship issues. This man knew what he was doing, and if it wasn't you it would've been a different child if given the opportunity. That makes analysis of the synastry a moot point, except to pinpoint your perception of him and how he influenced you as an individual.

He has been described as a well meaning, confused child inside of a man that only wanted to show love to a young girl, due to his own childhood trauma. That the child in you touched the child in him...I'm sorry, but that statement makes my stomach turn. This is textbook grooming. Child abusers are master manipulators, and are skilled at actually making their own victims take pity on them. I think that's the point that many here have tried to make, although it may come across as insulting your mental state. I don't think that anyone has that intention. Regardless of his own possible suffering or issues that he may have experienced as a child, he is still a grown man that knew what he was doing was wrong, and all that he cared about was his own sexual gratification. There was no love involved, that was simply a tactic that he used to get what he wanted. If you believe that he was coming from a place of love(even if in his own mind), then you are still under the influence of his emotional manipulation.

He was a sick, selfish child predator, and does not deserve the level of compassion that you have given to him. I understand that some feel that forgiveness is necessary in the healing process, but forgiveness does not mean making excuses for a man that is using classic grooming techniques and emotional manipulation. It may not have been your intention, but your description of him suggests that you are cutting him way too much slack. He's a perverted child molester that made a 4 year old feel loved so that he could satisfy his disgusting sexual urges. There's just no way around that. This was not the case of a well intentioned man being influenced by the energy of a certain child. I think that is the reason that many people aren't able to focus on the synastry, because it was a crime of opportunity, not attraction to a specific child.

I feel that your synastry with him speaks more to you being able to view him in a compassionate light than what actually triggered the abuse. Especially the Sun conjunct Venus double whammy, and the exact Mercury/Neptune. These aspects make it difficult to view him as a monster, no matter how inexcusable and vile his behavior was.

I'm sorry you fell victim to this man, and I wish you well on your road to healing. You're a very beautiful soul, and that shows in all of your posts. I hope I haven't offended you in any way, as that is not my intention.

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posted May 18, 2015 05:06 PM            

I can already see the same theme in your post above that permeated this thread, and hurt me.

posted May 18, 2015 07:34 PM            

I do understand part of the problem, however. To you, voix, you've dealt with this for such a long time that it's normal to you...but it's not so normal to others who (maybe unless very Plutonian) will be shocked, dismayed, and horrified, and even those who have been abused can either refuse to deal with it or they've experienced it a lot more differently and find it difficult to see it any other way (in any case hold a lot of anger that could find a target or opportunity to vent in this thread). While I admire your courage and the self-healing you're attempting it would've been better to leave out the details and have just asked about the synastry (besides, what was said could prove interesting if people didn't know), perhaps adding in the details later after you thought you got all that you could get without sharing the relevant details.

posted May 18, 2015 08:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Voix, ignore LeeLoo. Many know how she can get and disagreeing with her is something she takes very personally and gets upset over no matter how trivial it is as if to admit any mistake (or even misunderstanding) was to, I don't know, saying she was a terrible person (some people do think along those lines). Given that's the case in the best of times then this subject must be a lot worse for her. Just try to tune her out as much as possible when she gets like this. You wouldn't be the only one.

I do understand part of the problem, however. To you, voix, you've dealt with this for such a long time that it's normal to you...but it's not so normal to others who (maybe unless very Plutonian) will be shocked, dismayed, and horrified, and even those who have been abused can either refuse to deal with it or they've experienced it a lot more differently and find it difficult to see it any other way (in any case hold a lot of anger that could find a target or opportunity to vent in this thread). While I admire your courage and the self-healing you're attempting it would've been better to leave out the details and have just asked about the synastry (besides, what was said could prove interesting if people didn't know), perhaps adding in the details later after you thought you got all that you could get without sharing the relevant details.

I'm rather busy right now and I just wanted to say before this thread got locked (and would've said so privately if I could). But, if possible, I will try to take a close look at the synastry later.

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This is the most insulting post to abused children and others violence victims and to the memory of many of them who didn’t survive I have seen in my life and my entire career. It suggests the poster should have lied and pretended this was a normal relationship synastry in order to test reactions and gather data. It also suggests the people who posted here on 236 posts, putting so much heart, effort and time into this, me included, many of them professionals, in an attempt to help, as best as they thought they could on a public forum, a child and adult wounded not of her own fault, with a wound that touches all of us deeply, actually saw this thread as an opportunity to vent their own personal issues, they did it because of their own psychological problems. It also suggests that only people who didn’t deal with their own personal issues (unless heavy Plutonian) are shocked, dismayed and horrified by child rape and abuse, a "trivial" matter to you.

With just a few words, you viciously attacked everything that was humanity in this thread and the very heart of healing professions.

posted May 18, 2015 09:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[...] society has a blind and irrational hatred towards pedophiles.The mere mention of one prompts violent emotional responses from the vast majority of people. Is that really a good thing? Think about it this way..... Do you think all of the violent hatred would make a pedophile feel safe coming out and telling a loved one or therapist that they struggle with sexual attraction towards children? No..... It only forces them further underground and increases the chances they might harm a child. Blind hatred and ignorance is not the way.. People need to be able to talk about serious issues such as these in a calm rational way if we want to help solve the problem.

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I couldn't agree more. I'm gonna sound like a sick monster to some of you, and I'm not pinpointing anyone here, but I never could understand such strong feelings of hatred towards pedophiles or abusers in general. Just... how can you judge someone for their actions, without having been through what they already have ? Moreover, actions which result from whatever's actually wrong with them and that they cannot control ?

Do you know what it's like to be one of them ?
Do you know what is going on in their minds ?

Would you actually be able to cope with that ?

Honestly, I wouldn't know. And that's why I don't hate them. Just imagine how crushed they must be feeling. I'm obviously not saying that what they do is right, but I try to understand them. I have tried to have compassion for my abuser, I understood where she was coming from, and I forgave her. It's as simple as that. I don't hold grudge against her for what she's done anymore -- like I've already said in this thread, it was just a mistake. It just made more damage than 'usual' mistakes, but it was one. And humans make mistakes.

Please, I'm asking that you try and have compassion for people like her. Please. How would you feel if your way of thinking is rejected by the whole world with so much hatred and disgust ? Misunderstood. Sad. Depressed. Just... so very lonely.