posted May 18, 2015 07:31 AM            

therapists are always at risk of thinking they know better than the clients.

HOWEVER, every client knows themselves better than you ever will.

The day you cease to learn from the client is the day you cease to be a "therapist".

A curious therapist is an effective therapist.

Your questions are irrelevant, because they are designed to make me answer for assertions I did not make.

We are not going to come to an understanding until you realise that you have completely misinterpreted my OP, and every post I have made since then.

All the information you need to understand, I have written, and repeated.

I have nothing else to give you LeeLoo, and I didn't even owe you what I did.

posted May 18, 2015 07:36 AM            

*Haven't read the whole thread yet, but subjects like this are very, very touchy and need to be handled in the most caring and sensitive way possible.

posted May 18, 2015 07:38 AM            

quote:

---

What should a child understand?

What should other rapists and potential killers understand?

What should the rape victims understand?

---

This thread is suitable for a mature, 18+ audience, and this is why it was moved to Sweet Peas.

However... children, victims of abuse (as well as every other person in the world with internet access) can come across a great and varied amount of information online.
There is nothing anyone can do about this ^ - other than the children's parents.

posted May 18, 2015 07:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BellaFenice:
It seems the thread keeps taking diverted turns. No matter what your opinions and feelings are, please keep in mind and respect the wishes of the OP. Otherwise it might be best to close it. I believe the OP wanted astrological analysis?

*Haven't read the whole thread yet, but subjects like this are very, very touchy and need to be handled in the most caring and sensitive way possible.

Sending you good vibes Voix.

---

posted May 18, 2015 07:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:

This thread is suitable for a mature, 18+ audience, and this is why it was moved to Sweet Peas.

However... children, victims of abuse (as well as every other person in the world with internet access) can come across a great and varied amount of information online.
There is nothing anyone can do about this ^ - other than the children's parents.

To request that everyone should censor everything they say on an online forum, for fear that a child (or a victim of abuse) may read it - is excessive (and this request/suggestion would be virtually impossible to implement).
If we all did this ^ we would never discuss any adult topics online, in *any* context.

---

posted May 18, 2015 07:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

And how is "caring and sensitive" to comment on such a thread when you haven't even read it yet?

---

Seriously? Grow up. I'm not allowed to comment because I haven't read every single post yet? So it is not okay for me to send positive vibes and support to someone now- that literally makes no sense.

posted May 18, 2015 07:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BellaFenice:
Seriously? Grow up. I'm not allowed to comment because I haven't read every single post yet?

I've read half of the thread and am concerned about the disagreements in here, and the fact the OP is getting upset. Voix wanted to discuss the astrology not for people to psychoanalyze her.

---

This is a very sensitive complex painful topic for many people! You could have had the decency and common sense to read the thread before jumping in, with such a topic, and wonder if you do more harm than good.

posted May 18, 2015 08:17 AM            

She is not describing the -reality- of him being an abuser.
But rather, his twisted "perception".
As she has said to you many times, she understands that his behaviour was abusive.

I agree that - theorising re: what does (or does not) go on in the mind of an abuser (or assessing the synastry of an abuser-victim relationship)... is not a topic for a child or for an (adult) victim of abuse whose wounds are still wide open.
And I would hope that a child does not come across this topic at all, or any other topic like this online --- and that an (adult) victim of abuse who cannot discuss this with some detachment, has the self-protective mechanism to stir clear of such sensitive topics.

posted May 18, 2015 08:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
This is a very sensitive complex painful topic! You could have had the decency and common sense to read the thread before jumping in, with such a topic, and wonder if you do more harm than good.

Just because someone requests a synastry that poses complex psychological and ethical issues it doesn't mean we instantly start analyzing aspects for no matter what, like robots!

---

Where did I say or suggest we analyze them like robots? Nowhere, my concerns lied in the later responses from Voix and what she wanted to discuss.

Is it really too much of an imposition that I'm concerned about her feeling upset and wanted to send her good vibes? That is harmful to you? Slap me on the wrist for caring about someone's feelings.

I actually have a few family experiences with sexual abuse I wanted to share with Voix only if she wanted to hear them, but now I won't because I no longer feel comfortable doing so.

But don't worry, I guess I apparently lack the 'common sense' and decency required to discuss something I have personal experience with. I don't have the 'qualifications' of whatever you deem worthy even though none of us are psychologists/psychiatrists.

I'm not going to apologize for showing someone care.

posted May 18, 2015 08:24 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Aquaguy, I know you are the usual raisonneur and the little flame here, but using this as your Monday distraction is truly immoral.

This is getting VERY disturbing already.

Voix, most of your posts here are showing you believe your stepfather thought he loved you, that you had a "special connection", that you even healed him, which is a distorted vision of the dynamics between an abuser and his victim. It's simply untrue, but that's something for you to find out someplace else, not here.

I don't want to quote all these posts, I will focus on the very disturbing OP:

"He treated me as a partner, a confidante, a comrade, a sexual partner. Our relationship was very emotional, it wasn't all sex."
He didn't treat you as a partner a confidante a comrade a sexual partner: he RAPED you as a child and abused you.

Many pedophiles are fighting hard their urges to hurt children. Suppose one of them has an opportunity now, yet fighting it. What should he understand from your phrase here, your OP, your posts in this thread?

What should a child understand?

What should other rapists and potential killers understand?

What should the rape victims understand?

I know this comes from a place of pain, and it is unintentional, but you are condoning pedophilia and rape with your posts.

---

posted May 18, 2015 08:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
The OP, which you said was disturbing - was written from *his* perspective.
i.e. he "thought" he loved her, he "thought" they had a relationship", he "treated her like" a partner etc.
She is describing his own sick perspective on things - or the way she believes *he* saw that relationship.

She is not describing the -reality- of him being an abuser.
But rather, his twisted "perception".
As she has said to you many times, she understands that his behaviour was abusive.

I agree that - theorising re: what [b]does (or does not) go on in the mind of an abuser (or assessing the synastry of an abuser-victim relationship)... is not a topic for a child or for an (adult) victim of abuse whose wounds are still wide open.
And I would hope that a child does not come across this topic at all, or any other topic like this online --- and that an (adult) victim of abuse who cannot discuss this with some detachment, has the self-protective mechanism to stir clear of such sensitive topics.

But, as I said previously... it would be impossible to censor all topics of this nature. People *need* to talk about these things. Many victims need to talk about their perspective and their perception on things, as well as the way they *personally* healed.
As a person who sees truth and meaning in astrology, I completely understand why - looking back on things, a person who was abused would want to analyse their synastry with the abuser (to be able to understand present and past-life issues).[/B]

---

It's not what is happening here, Odette. if you read the entire thread, you would realize that.
Anyway, whatever anger and pain there is, it is not directed at Voix, but at what happened to her and of course, this includes the abuser, an adult fitting the profile of this psychopathology: severe sexual perversion, psychopathy, cruel and selfish emotional manipulation, violence etc.

This is the synastry of severe child molestation and can only be discussed as such, for this is what it is, this is what happened.

Personally (just an opinion, although an informed one), I believe it is not the right time for this, for Voix, to discuss the reality of this synastry yet; there are few who attempted to point the emotional manipulation, abuse and distortion/illusion in this synastry, astrologically, and she feels insulted people see this man as just an abuser and she feels insulted when people suggested maybe she should continue looking for answers some place else, with a specialist. Everyone who thought that, and said that, and everyone contributing to this thread, did it with the desire to help; some of us have personal and professional experience with these issues. But she has the right to be here and discuss whatever she wants.

On the other hand, there has to be great responsibility about the messages we send about rape and child abuse on a public forum. As a moderator, and in general, all of us have to take this into consideration, to be very serious about it, the victim too, especially the victim. It has to be a 100% rejection of what this person did; when one is not ready for that, one is not ready for the public with that. Otherwise it really is condoning.

posted May 18, 2015 08:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
[b]Aquaguy, I know you are the usual raisonneur and the little flame here, but using this as your Monday distraction is truly immoral.

This is getting VERY disturbing already.

Voix, most of your posts here are showing you believe your stepfather thought he loved you, that you had a "special connection", that you even healed him, which is a distorted vision of the dynamics between an abuser and his victim. It's simply untrue, but that's something for you to find out someplace else, not here.

I don't want to quote all these posts, I will focus on the very disturbing OP:

"He treated me as a partner, a confidante, a comrade, a sexual partner. Our relationship was very emotional, it wasn't all sex."
He didn't treat you as a partner a confidante a comrade a sexual partner: he RAPED you as a child and abused you.

Many pedophiles are fighting hard their urges to hurt children. Suppose one of them has an opportunity now, yet fighting it. What should he understand from your phrase here, your OP, your posts in this thread?

What should a child understand?

What should other rapists and potential killers understand?

What should the rape victims understand?

I know this comes from a place of pain, and it is unintentional, but you are condoning pedophilia and rape with your posts.

---

posted May 18, 2015 08:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
It's not what is happening here, Odette. if you read the entire thread, you would realize that.
Anyway, whatever anger and pain there is, it is not directed at Voix, but at what happened to her and of course, this includes the abuser, an adult fitting the profile of this psychopathology: severe sexual perversion, psychopathy, cruel and selfish emotional manipulation, violence etc.

This is the synastry of severe child molestation and can only be discussed as such, for this is what it is, this is what happened.

Personally (just an opinion), I believe it is not the right time for this, for Voix, to discuss the reality of this synastry yet; there are few who attempted to point the emotional manipulation, abuse and distortion/illusion in this synastry, astrologically, and she feels insulted people see this man as just an abuser and she feels insulted when people suggested maybe she should continue looking for answers some place else, with a specialist. Everyone who thought that, and said that, and everyone contributing to this thread, did it with the desire to help; some of us have personal and professional experience with these issues. But she has the right to be here and discuss whatever she wants.

On the other hand, there has to be great responsibility about the messages we send about rape and child abuse on a public forum. As a moderator, and in general, all of us have to take this into consideration, to be very serious about it, the victim too, especially the victim. It has to be a 100% rejection of what this person did; when one is not ready for that, one is not ready for the public with that. Otherwise it really is condoning.

---

Again, LeeLoo, you are making judgements on my ability to understand and discuss my experience, without enough accurate information to do so.

To think you know my abilities better than I without this information is at best ignorant, and at worst, arrogant.

Let's assume that you go back, and properly read the thread, and finally understand what I have been saying.

Even then, IS IT ETHICAL, or even POSSIBLE to accurately assess another's mental state in one thread on the internet?

posted May 18, 2015 08:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BellaFenice:
Where did I say or suggest we analyze them like robots? Nowhere, my concerns lied in the later responses from Voix and what she wanted to discuss.

Is it really too much of an imposition that I'm concerned about her feeling upset and wanted to send her good vibes? That is harmful to you? Slap me on the wrist for caring about someone's feelings.

I actually have a few family experiences with sexual abuse I wanted to share with Voix only if she wanted to hear them, but now I won't because I no longer feel comfortable doing so.

But don't worry, I guess I apparently lack the 'common sense' and decency required to discuss something I have personal experience with. I don't have the 'qualifications' of whatever you deem worthy even though none of us are psychologists/psychiatrists.

I'm not going to apologize for showing someone care.

NOW I've read the whole thread. Good riddance.

---

What a drama queen

posted May 18, 2015 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
No. I'm just arguing with you. :P
I bet you haven't read the thread either

---

posted May 18, 2015 08:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
It's not what is happening here, Odette. if you read the entire thread, you would realize that.
Anyway, whatever anger and pain there is, it is not directed at Voix, but at what happened to her and of course, this includes the abuser, an adult fitting the profile of this psychopathology: severe sexual perversion, psychopathy, cruel and selfish emotional manipulation, violence etc.

This is the synastry of severe child molestation and can only be discussed as such, for this is what it is, this is what happened.

Personally (just an opinion), I believe it is not the right time for this, for Voix, to discuss the reality of this synastry yet; there are few who attempted to point the emotional manipulation, abuse and distortion/illusion in this synastry, astrologically, and she feels insulted people see this man as just an abuser and she feels insulted when people suggested maybe she should continue looking for answers some place else, with a specialist. Everyone who thought that, and said that, and everyone contributing to this thread, did it with the desire to help; some of us have personal and professional experience with these issues. But she has the right to be here and discuss whatever she wants.

On the other hand, there has to be great responsibility about the messages we send about rape and child abuse on a public forum. As a moderator, and in general, all of us have to take this into consideration, to be very serious about it, the victim too, especially the victim. It has to be a 100% rejection of what this person did; when one is not ready for that, one is not ready for the public with that. Otherwise it really is condoning.

---

Oh wait a minute LeeLoo.

What I rejected in this thread are attempts to manipulate my understanding of what happened.

NOT genuine insights regarding the synastry.

It's as if you think no one will actually read the thread, because if they do, they will see how utterly skewed your perception of it is.

I don't know what you are getting out of this.

Some self-righteous war against all abusers, or what.

But the fact that you lack the presence of mind to truly UNDERSTAND what is written, and the ethical consideration that you are telling a SURVIVOR that they need to go back to a specialist, renders discussion with you no more than an exercise for you to throw your weight around.

I am sorry for what happened to you.
Sorry for all of us.

But your behaviour in this thread has caused ACTUAL HARM.

posted May 18, 2015 09:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Again, LeeLoo, you are making judgements on my ability to understand and discuss my experience, without enough accurate information to do so.

To think you know my abilities better than I without this information is at best ignorant, and at worst, arrogant.

Let's assume that you go back, and properly read the thread, and finally understand what I have been saying.

Even then, IS IT ETHICAL, or even POSSIBLE to accurately assess another's mental state in one thread on the internet?

You have been asking me to take responsibility for my posts (even though your "understanding" of said posts is completely inaccurate) - where is your responsibility as a professional - diagnosing people on the internet?

---

I am not a therapist anymore, certainly not yours, and this is not my specialty. This doesn't matter that much because anyone with minimal knowledge of this world knows that bonding between victim/perpetrator happens in initial stages of post-traumatic healing after abuse; you don't have to be a therapist for that.

Certainly, there is a stage when us, as victims, understand the abusers are humans too, they are distorted individuals who perhaps became distorted due to their own abuse. This is not scientifically proven though, how much is environment, how much is genetics, because they also have genetic and biological (cerebral) malfunctions in most cases; chances are many of them were actually born like this. But this does not in any measure, minimize their guilt and their responsibility; this does not make them "less" abusers.

posted May 18, 2015 09:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Oh wait a minute LeeLoo.

What I rejected in this thread are attempts to manipulate my understanding of what happened.

NOT genuine insights regarding the synastry.

It's as if you think no one will actually read the thread, because if they do, they will see how utterly skewed your perception of it is.

I don't know what you are getting out of this.

Some self-righteous war against all abusers, or what.

But the fact that you lack the presence of mind to truly UNDERSTAND what is written, and the ethical consideration that you are telling a SURVIVOR that they need to go back to a specialist, renders discussion with you no more than an exercise for you to throw your weight around.

I am sorry for what happened to you.
Sorry for all of us.

But your behaviour in this thread has caused ACTUAL HARM.

The very thing you think you are fighting against.

---

posted May 18, 2015 09:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I am not a therapist anymore, certainly not yours, and this is not my specialty. But anyone with minimal knowledge of this world knows that bonding between victim/perpetrator is an initial stage in post-traumatic healing after abuse; you don't have to be a therapist for that.

Certainly, there is a stage when us, as victims, understand the abusers are humans too, they are distorted individuals who perhaps became distorted due to their own abuse. This is not scientifically proven though, how much is environment, how much is genetics, because they also have genetic and biological (cerebral) malfunctions in most cases; chances are many of them were actually born like this. But this does not in any measure, minimize their guilt and their responsibility; this does not make them "less" abusers.

A completely healed victim never sends an ambiguous message to the public, with the risk of condoning pedophilia or other forms of abuse. She fights against these things ever happening again, with every message she sends.

---

I think it would be very difficult to determine which biological changes are due to trauma they received themselves, and what are truly innate.

So, it would be irresponsible to cut straight to the view that anyone is BORN an abuser.

With respect, you would not have had the insight to support my healing. That is clear.

Why you are pointing out you are "certainly not my therapist" is baffling, considering you informed me I was a "classic case of Stockholm Syndrome".

That sure looks like a diagnosis.

If you are no longer a therapist, then you have a PERSONAL responsibility.

Which I guess can be harder when you are traumatised yourself.
I know, because I've been there.
And even now, I have to watch this very closely, that my own perceptions do not colour my work with clients.

Their journey is THEIRS.

posted May 18, 2015 09:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Bluejay, someone who obviously has experience with the issue, pointed out in a very gentle, intelligent, articulate and brilliant manner that you may have a distorted view about your abuser due to Mercury conjunct Neptune, Sun/Venus DW and you responded in a very harsh manner. You don't even consider this possibility. I believe what you are looking for with this synastry is markers for "love".

---

Please read the OP.

I stated that I included "love" asteroids because what astrology may regard as "love" is not always the case in reality.
As it was NOT with my stepfather.

Bluejay mixed up astrology with further attempts to manipulate my perception.

You see LeeLoo, one thing I learned, inside-out, is to know when I am being manipulated.