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Author
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Topic: Can we see Childhood Sexual Abuse in Synastry? A True Life Example.
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Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:12 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Voix,I've done extensive trauma work myself -- as both one who has suffered, and experienced the suffering of others. Another arena in which we find severe polarisation is regarding homicidal personalities. I've worked with a few; I was befriended by others still. One of my oldest childhood best friends also participated in the murder of her stepson with her husband. I believe there's a fine line between healthy acceptance and helpless acknowledgement. I'm not even sure I understand the difference just yet. Being able to forgive one for the damage done to us is complex, but I don't think you can blame others, calling them 'too weak' because they cannot wrap their heads around what you've termed healing. To each their own, ultimately. Knowing what we all know, you're just not going to 'win' this one, Voix. Take your own personal truth and accept that it may be a lonely road. I've had similar but entirely different experiences, with the discovery of a friend of mine having committed homicide -- being such a personality, who delighted in it. No guilt, no remorse. You find that you're viewing them through an entirely different lens now, in the light of this information. I've tried to understand him. Tried to have sympathy. Tried to understand why he killed, and why he enjoyed it. He wasn't ALL bad, you could say. He has a girlfriend now. A steady job. Either his last homicide was in the mid-'90s, or the early naughts -- depending upon what's true. Was it his rough childhood? The neglect and abuse he also suffered? His obvious schizophrenia? His tormented personality? He was kind to me -- obsessive, but kind. He actively attacked, threatened, and nearly killed those who sought to harm, or harmed, me. Unfortunately, he also harmed or sought to harm those who loved me, or monopolised my attention. How do I feel, overall, about him? Like I dodged a bullet by refusing to become further involved. That I'm grateful for his leading me to my eventual destiny of becoming a criminal profiler. Thanks to him, I learnt to fight monsters. Am I at peace? What is peace? Have I accepted it? What is acceptance? That sort of complication is not far from a man taking advantage of and victimising a helpless child, who is only seeking love and guidance. We have very little 'acceptance' for such types -- almost as a general rule. Is that 'right' ? That depends upon your definition of right. And on and on it goes.
Aubryanne, I totally appreciate where your coming from but until you've been hurt in a way that literally leaves you with nothing or empty....you are so beyond that because empty is SOMETHING, you will not understand where she's at unless you've lived this.
She is not forgiving or trying to understand him for HIM, she trying to do that for herself, her own survival.
When you compare your friend who never hurt you...yes you can sit there are judge him without it reflecting back on you.
She doesnt have that luxury!!
When the persons sadistic issues have become part of your foundation, your belief system regarding who you are, your self worth and what you mean to the world and yourself is all based on the things that happened...you have to think a little deeper than judgement of that person. Everything you feel for them you feel for yourself, if you condemn them you condemn yourself so all you can do is forgive and try to understand. IP: Logged |
Aubyanne
Moderator Posts: 3490
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
Aubryanne, I totally appreciate where your coming from but until you've been hurt in a way that literally leaves you with nothing or empty....you are so beyond that because empty is SOMETHING, you will not understand where she's at unless you've lived this.
You seem to think I haven't. Also, I was giving perspective. Showing an instance of polarity, not similarity. Funny, you say that 'my friend' never hurt me. I thought that up until the age of nineteen, when my first therapist had the opposite opinion. It was the first time I developed true agoraphobia. Prior to that, I suppose I'd been living in a dreamworld. It was better than the flashbacks -- or crippling anxiety. But this is not that. This is far, far beyond that. They are two entirely separate issues and conversations. I was merely introducing another incident of polarity. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
You seem to think I haven't.Also, I was giving perspective. Showing an instance of polarity, not similarity.
I'm not saying you havnt but from what I see you don't understand where she's at or why...so to me that says you have not experienced what she is experiencing.
Many ppl think they have been destoyed, they go around telling everyone about it and use it as an excuse.
The ones who truly HAVE been destroyed and live through it do not think anything about it at all. They realize healing is in the ability to let it go, find peace, forgive and just be happy to be alive! IP: Logged |
Peluches
Knowflake Posts: 953
From: Vαleŋtiŋe ~
Registered: Jul 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:27 PM
Voix,  Could it be that your MARS/PLUTO midpoints are conjunct ? And, logically, that the composite MARS/PLUTO midpoint is the same too, i.e. conjunct your SATURN-ASC ? I personally don't think we can see this kind of thing from a synastry only. I'd include the composite, and compare it to the natals to see how the relationship affects each person. Maybe then we can find more indications. (: IP: Logged |
Aubyanne
Moderator Posts: 3490
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
Everything you feel for them you feel for yourself, if you condemn them you condemn yourself so all you can do is forgive and try to understand.
I disagree entirely. You reach a point where you learn to develop a sense of self, which allows you to be your own person. Finally. Or some version of it. At least, it allows you to see that you are not them, and to move beyond your earliest teachings -- discovering a new map, and drawing one for yourself, by yourself. I have no sexuality. I don't understand why. I have theories. I suspect. It must all be connected -- it must be. But it's rather chicken and egg for me; I can never tell which came first, though, chronologically, it'd have to be the result of that. I don't have the sense of peace which most asexuals do. I seem to be searching. I just don't know for what. But the way I began the search at all was to understand where it ended and I began. To find that tiniest moment of separation and build upon it. It's arduous. It's confusing. It's a reinvention at your core. But what other choice do you have? Any? I haven't found an alternative. Have you? IP: Logged |
Aubyanne
Moderator Posts: 3490
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
I'm not saying you havnt but from what I see you don't understand where she's at or why...so to me that says you have not experienced what she is experiencing.
I think she has a very long, long, long way to go before it can be called 'healed'. But then I am at the beginning of my own long, long, long journey, so perspective is hard to discern. I can only take a step back and see how others are reacting to the situation. It's polarised. As you'd expect. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
You seem to think I haven't.Also, I was giving perspective. Showing an instance of polarity, not similarity. Funny, you say that 'my friend' never hurt me. I thought that up until the age of nineteen, when my first therapist had the opposite opinion. It was the first time I developed true agoraphobia. Prior to that, I suppose I'd been living in a dreamworld. It was better than the flashbacks -- or crippling anxiety. But this is not that. This is far, far beyond that. They are two entirely separate issues and conversations. I was merely introducing another incident of polarity.
Childhood abuse in the home from a parental figure that is meant to be protection is a whole different
world because it becomes part of your psyches foundation for beliefs about who you got the rest of your life.
Yes, someone can come along and hurt you but they can't rip your entire foundation out from underneath you and instill crippling negative beliefs all over your psyche that you are not even aware are there until you grow up and start reliving the cycles through the choices you make that self destructive. Only someone who is your foundation can do that to you. IP: Logged |
Aubyanne
Moderator Posts: 3490
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
Childhood abuse in the home from a parental figure that is meant to be protection is a whole different
world because it becomes part of your psyches foundation for beliefs about who you got the rest of your life.
Yes, someone can come along and hurt you but they can't rip your entire foundation out from underneath you and instill crippling negative beliefs all over your psyche that you are not even aware are there until you grow up and start reliving the cycles through the choices you make that self destructive. Only someone who is your foundation can do that to you.
I have no idea why you keep comparing the two. Why do you? Do you simply not understand that I've never made the comparison? I've only introduced each to show an example of polarity. Nothing beyond that, Gabby. You keep drawing comparison where there is none, and acting as if I know nothing of what I'm talking about. And it's really starting to anger me. You seem to think just because I haven't aired my past grievances on LL that I have none. Really? Truly? I try to keep it astrological technique. I don't need to analyse that astrology. Maybe I'm not even ready for it yet, because its effects have shaped every single day of my life since I was thirteen. And prior to that, but again, I don't talk about it. And now I'm done. IP: Logged |
LeeLoo2014
Moderator Posts: 11924
From: Venus cornering Neptune
Registered: Mar 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
I'm not saying you havnt but from what I see you don't understand where she's at or why...so to me that says you have not experienced what she is experiencing.
Many ppl think they have been destoyed, they go around telling everyone about it and use it as an excuse.
The ones who truly HAVE been destroyed and live through it do not think anything about it at all. They realize healing is in the ability to let it go, find peace, forgive and just be happy to be alive!
I don't think we should forgive things that are unforgivable. It gives the impression they are somehow acceptable. Bad things are unacceptable. The reason they happened to you, dear Gabby, is because there is this future when they will never happen again, and somehow you are part of this transformation, with your story.
IMO, the healing starts when one understands they have gone through a TRIAL, a big NO, and survived to fight against these things ever happening again.
I can understand the dilemma about pleasure/pain (only as a psychologist, I can't even dare to imagine the position of the victim in this case), but a good therapist would know how to explain sex dynamics and why this happens and explain this is a weapon of the abuser you are free to release, mentally and physically, and replace it with your own choice, with a new dynamics, with the therapist's help. What is important is that you can be free of this experience, you don't have to carry it with you, this is what good therapy does. IP: Logged |
midnightvenus
Knowflake Posts: 471
From: outerspace
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
Everything you feel for them you feel for yourself, if you condemn them you condemn yourself so all you can do is forgive and try to understand.
You are NOT the person who hurt you. There's nothing wrong with hating someone for their monstrous acts, especially when you were the one victimized by them.
They might have been victimized as well early in their lives, but they CHOSE not to heal, and bring harm to others. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I disagree entirely. You reach a point where you learn to develop a sense of self, which allows you to be your own person. Finally. Or some version of it. At least, it allows you to see that you are not them, and to move beyond your earliest teachings -- discovering a new map, and drawing one for yourself, by yourself. I have no sexuality. I don't understand why. I have theories. I suspect. It must all be connected -- it must be. But it's rather chicken and egg for me; I can never tell which came first, though, chronologically, it'd have to be the result of that. I don't have the sense of peace which most asexuals do. I seem to be searching. I just don't know for what. But the way I began the search at all was to understand where it ended and I began. To find that tiniest moment of separation and build upon it. It's arduous. It's confusing. It's a reinvention at your core. But what other choice do you have? Any? I haven't found an alternative. Have you?
Yes of course you build your own sense of self after youve purged all the pain and forgiven everyone do your starting out with a clean slate. If you miss the step of forgiving you will never have a clean slate and you will never truly heal. No there is no alternative! I had to rip my core out and re-raise myself. I literally had to test every boundary that id learned and find my own foundation. I had to go through all the stages if growing up again, but this time I was the mom and the child. I had to let myself go crazy to find out who I was. I wasn't acting out I was leaning about myself. Anyone who heals must step back and watch their natural reactions to life in order to learn what's wrong, why and how to heal. You must see your own patterns of bad and good behavior and that's were you start. From their you start adjusting yourself to be the person that you really want to be instead of the knee jerk reactive person you became due to pain. IP: Logged |
Aubyanne
Moderator Posts: 3490
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:44 PM
-IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I don't think we should forgive things that are unforgivable. It gives the impression they are somehow acceptable. Bad things are unacceptable. The reason they happened to you, dear Gabby, is because there is this future when they will never happen again, and somehow you are part of this transformation, with your story.
IMO, the healing starts when one understands they have gone through a TRIAL, a big NO, and survived to fight against these things ever happening again.
I can understand the dilemma about pleasure/pain (only as a psychologist, I can't even dare to imagine the position of the victim in this case), but a good therapist would know how to explain sex dynamics and why this happens and explain this is a weapon of the abuser you are free to release, mentally and physically, and replace it with your own choice, with a new dynamics, with the therapist's help. What is important is that you can be free of this experience, you don't have to carry it with you, this is what good therapy does.
You don't forgive for them, you forgive for you!
IP: Logged |
midnightvenus
Knowflake Posts: 471
From: outerspace
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
God. Everybody everywhere, sex, sex, sex, sex. Bloody obsessed, this world. And we treat those who trespass against another's with wide variance. Ohh, they're ill. Ohh, they were abused. Ohh, THEY HAD JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACCOUNTABILITY.I hate everything to do with sex. Its power, its reach -- why it's so damned important to everyone, that they use it as a justification to do harm and cause misery. UNACCEPTABLE. Say I lack compassion, say I'm 'not healing'. I don't much care anymore. Some days I stare at the ceiling because suicide is irresponsible. Most days, I trudge on. That's what you do. YOU TRUDGE ON. YOU WATCH YOUR FEET MOVE. You, in my opinion, don't bloody presume you know others because of what you think you know. I have no respect for those who ruin the lives of others. None. No sympathy. No understanding. Call me heartless. I may be. Your stepfather was a pitiful loser, Voix. 'Ill' or not, what he did to you is unconscionable. If you won't own up to that truth, FINE. I'm done with this discussion.
I'm with you, Auby. IP: Logged |
LeeLoo2014
Moderator Posts: 11924
From: Venus cornering Neptune
Registered: Mar 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by midnightvenus:
You are NOT the person who hurt you.There's nothing wrong with hating someone for their monstrous acts, especially when you were the one victimized by them.
They might have been victimized as well early in their lives, but they CHOSE not to heal, and bring harm to others.
That's the core issue. Learning to fully embrace the things we HATE, we don't like, things with NO written all over them, those we want to eradicate. All of us experience in our lives things we HATE; this is how we learn to destroy them. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I think she has a very long, long, long way to go before it can be called 'healed'. But then I am at the beginning of my own long, long, long journey, so perspective is hard to discern.I can only take a step back and see how others are reacting to the situation. It's polarised. As you'd expect.
You don't understand the place she's at....like you said you at the beginning. You will understand when your further along. She's done some amazing work to be where she is, most would not have held onto their sanity...she's very powerful!
The fact that she can forgive something so horrific and try to understand this experience beyond the human way...that's powerful! But she's not doing it for him she's trying to understand it for her SOULs evolution not just her physical life this incarnation. This shows her souls depth of strength and power, she's overcoming human imperfections and seeing life as her higher self sees it.
IP: Logged |
midnightvenus
Knowflake Posts: 471
From: outerspace
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
That's the core issue. Learning to fully embrace the things we HATE, we don't like, things with NO written all over them, those we want to eradicate.All of us experience in our lives things we HATE; this is how we learn to destroy them.
People tend to give a bad connotation to the feeling of hate.
They teach us it's immature to hate.
We have to grow out of this mentality and learn that hate is a VALID feeling, as much as any other.
Feeling and accepting its raw existence is validating ourselves. IP: Logged |
LeeLoo2014
Moderator Posts: 11924
From: Venus cornering Neptune
Registered: Mar 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
You don't forgive for them, you forgive for you!
 It's OK you still believe this, Gabby...I think it's wrong. I'm actually into: forget, but do not forgive  It's an experience for you to learn what NOT to do and what shouldn't be done. And after that, you just occupy yourself with DOING the opposite, until that very thing becomes oblivion, and it is eradicated. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 04:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by midnightvenus:
You are NOT the person who hurt you.There's nothing wrong with hating someone for their monstrous acts, especially when you were the one victimized by them.
They might have been victimized as well early in their lives, but they CHOSE not to heal, and bring harm to others.
Exactly, you are not that person! But until you get all if THEM out of you and all the residue they left in you purged you have a hard time not feeling like they are a part of you.
IP: Logged |
LeeLoo2014
Moderator Posts: 11924
From: Venus cornering Neptune
Registered: Mar 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 04:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by midnightvenus:
People tend to give a bad connotation to the feeling of hate.
They teach us it's immature to hate.
We have to grow out of this mentality and learn that hate is a VALID feeling, as much as any other.
Feeling and accepting its raw existence is validating ourselves.
To be honest, it's also a policy promoted by the most powerful religions. A way to make people accept things. A way to rule people. IP: Logged |
Peluches
Knowflake Posts: 953
From: Vαleŋtiŋe ~
Registered: Jul 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 05:00 PM
We all obviously have different opinions about this kind of things, and I don't think Voix asked for a debate when she created this thread. So, please, can we just try to understand and respect everybody's perspective and get on with the astrology here ?For Voix. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 05:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
God. Everybody everywhere, sex, sex, sex, sex. Bloody obsessed, this world. And we treat those who trespass against another's with wide variance. Ohh, they're ill. Ohh, they were abused. Ohh, THEY HAD JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACCOUNTABILITY.I hate everything to do with sex. Its power, its reach -- why it's so damned important to everyone, that they use it as a justification to do harm and cause misery. UNACCEPTABLE. Say I lack compassion, say I'm 'not healing'. I don't much care anymore. Some days I stare at the ceiling because suicide is irresponsible. Most days, I trudge on. That's what you do. YOU TRUDGE ON. YOU WATCH YOUR FEET MOVE. You, in my opinion, don't bloody presume you know others because of what you think you know. I have no respect for those who ruin the lives of others. None. No sympathy. No understanding. Call me heartless. I may be. Your stepfather was a pitiful loser, Voix. 'Ill' or not, what he did to you is unconscionable. If you won't own up to that truth, FINE. I'm done with this discussion.
I'm sure at one time she did hate him, but then she saw that hate was eating away at her...not him.
I'm sure she had resentments but then saw they were not doing her any good so she decided to let them go. Her casual way regarding this isn't due to lack if healing, it's due to getting over a huge mountain and seeing the other side of healing. The happiness and freedom from having to hold onto emotions that only serve to hurt you.
She's chosen freedom through forgiveness for her, not him. IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 05:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
It's OK you still believe this, Gabby...I think it's wrong. I'm actually into: forget, but do not forgive It's an experience for you to learn what NOT to do and what shouldn't be done. And after that, you just occupy yourself with DOING the opposite, until that very thing becomes oblivion, and it is eradicated.
I get that, I never said forget...only forgive.
One thing I've learned is when I let go, I'm happier and it's only my happiness that matters. Holding onto something only hurts you....no one else. So why do it? IP: Logged |
Gabby
Moderator Posts: 6344
From:
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted May 16, 2015 05:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
To be honest, it's also a policy promoted by the most powerful religions. A way to make people accept things. A way to rule people.
True happiness can only be found when we rise above the low vibrational emotions....holding onto those emotions brings sadness, stress, fear. You can chose to rise above it all and be happy, it's a choice that few make but it's the only one that brings true peace. IP: Logged |
midnightvenus
Knowflake Posts: 471
From: outerspace
Registered: Sep 2014
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posted May 16, 2015 05:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gabby:
Exactly, you are not that person! But until you get all if THEM out of you and all the residue they left in you purged you have a hard time not feeling like they are a part of you.
I see where you're coming from.
I feel like some people just need to be told simple things like that.
Like "no, they're not you, you aren't them, you aren't to blame, you don't need to be forgiven for you did nothing wrong."
...Because most of the time, survivors don't get to hear that. IP: Logged | |
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