posted March 20, 2009 05:58 PM         

quote:

---

No, I havent gone a bit too far.
Threads about Clive Owen's ass have gone too far, Peri.
I am talking about something real and meaningful here.

---

Thumbs up for the Crime and Punishment remark as well.

Over the years, I've been blessed with usually well-intentioned but ultimately almost always useless arguments against suicide. There isn't a therapist in the world I can't out-manuever. It's frustrating. All the seemingly reasonable suggestions we might make rarely withstand depressions power to twist and pervert. For instance, it sounds reasonable to say, "Please don't kill yourself. Your family/friends/children need you and it would cause them terrible pain". That argument worked for me when I was slightly depressed. But in the midst of a serious episode I was completely convinced that by killing myself I would be doing everyone around me a favor. The small matter of aranging the funeral and whatnot and then a much better life for everyone involved.

Someone mentioned meditation a few posts back. And I'm thinking of Buddha meditating under the Bodhi Tree, Mara hurling towards him arrows of anger and despair, trying to rob Buddha of Enlightenment. Of course, as the arrows entered Buddha's realm they were transformed, by Love, into flowers and butterflies. When experiencing depression at its worst, all the flowers and butterflies thrown in my direction felt to me rather like needles and bullets and shards of glass.

posted March 20, 2009 06:45 PM         

but, if the experience really does twist and distort,
there is nothing twisted or distorted about explaining that.

i am unhappy.
that is not a distortion.
things that work for others dont work for me
that is not a distortion.
i am very unique and also very relationship oriented by nature,
and it has been hard to feel like i belonged to any individual or group.
this is not a distortion.

and so on.

there are people like me all over the world
and whenever we raise our voices and testify to our personal experience
we are called whiners or deluded, and told our experience is a twisted distortion.

Well, as I see it, it is really just another part of nature.
Whether it "distorts" your idealistic vision of what should be is beside the point.

other than that, i like what you wrote a lot.

posted March 20, 2009 06:57 PM         

I think you are right about your statement regarding depression. No one can ever know what really lies within someone.

Today I attended a Memorial for a young man that stepped in front of a train here in Germany. He was only 23 years old and returned last November from a 15 month deployment in some of the worst areas in Iraq. He was not suffering from PTSD nor from what he saw at war. His dark side was present before he enlisted. It showed itself before he deployed.

The young Soldier could came from a well rounded family, he served with men that had his back and he performed above par downrange.

Still.... he had a dark side.

Today... I listened to my commander (his former commander) speak on the young man's behalf. While suicide has a stigma, we all still turned out because we remembered the Soldier and man that he was, not the decision he made. I can never know what pushed him to make that decision nor what led him to walk in front of that train. It was something he had thought about well before joining the Military, that is a fact all knew.

He was a hero but he was haunted.

All I know, is that suicide is not something to throw out there for attention. It is something that leaves those behind empty, it leaves a heartache that nothing can ever truely heal for those that are close to the person.

Did he blog about killing himself? No.. Did he post online about his depression? No...

But what he did shook our community, it broke his family and friends hearts.

It's not a joke and even if it is meant to be joked about, it is never funny attending a Memorial.. where you see the face of a hero that left this world because he felt he did not fit in nor ever felt he fit in.

This thread is sickening...because it was "a joke" to the thread starter.

HSC... you are a sick man and others had it right. If after 20 plus years of counseling and more than 4 years of posting your diatribes here.. you should be ashamed of yourself. You are once again (after NUMEROUS TIMES) trying to manipulate others to feel sorry for you and give you attention.

For you.. I feel NO empathy. For those that support you, I feel sadness.

But it is nothing compared to what I feel for the family that buried their son last week. It is nothing compared to the Memorials I have attended over the past few years for the real heroes.

posted March 20, 2009 07:11 PM         

I'm very sorry to hear about this young man.

I wonder if he was racked with repentance for all the murders he helped commit,
and unable to process the dawning awareness of his complicity in the massacre.

I'm sure he would not have known how to begin talking to you and yours about that.

quote:

---

All I know, is that suicide is not something to throw out there for attention...

Did he blog about killing himself? No.. Did he post online about his depression? No...

---

It's a shame.

Perhaps, if he had the courage to reach out,
either to friends and family, or in the anonymity of the web,
someone might have responded to his cries for help.

Then again, maybe they would have just told him he was looking for attention.
I guess that's why so many people never do take the risk of reaching out.
Especially big strong guys who can't bare the stigma of being thought weak.

posted March 20, 2009 07:32 PM         

That's as sad a story as I've heard. My prayers for him and his family.

posted March 20, 2009 07:36 PM         

Like, maybe sharing with others is a form of preventative medicine?

posted March 20, 2009 07:37 PM         

And of course I retain hope.

You can see that just by hearing me admit it.

Every day I have new hopes and new disappointments.

As I have said, it is a miracle I continue to hope, and go on living.

But then, I sometimes lack hope, not in life, but in the hereafter.

posted March 20, 2009 07:42 PM         

chickens. eggs. who knows.

that would not be true for me though, no.

posted March 20, 2009 07:44 PM         

i can clearly see it help me.

posted March 20, 2009 07:49 PM         

This young man saved lives... he was in very dangerous areas but never killed, harmed or maimed another human being or animal.

My husband is the same way. In his years of being deployed, in this war and during his time in Bosnia / Kosovo plus jumping into dangerous areas as a surveillance specialist, he never had to use his weapon. If he did.. then he that meant he was detected and did he job wrong LOL...

The young man in question had a dark side outside and before the Military. He was NOT a water sign. He was an Air sign.

posted March 20, 2009 07:52 PM         

Venus in Scorpio

Venus in Retrograde

Sun Conjunct Venus

Pluto square the Descendant

Moon ruling the Descendant

Moon conjunct the Ascendant

Chiron Square Moon

All of this points to an overwhelming need for intimacy.

And then there is all the Aqua/Uranus stuff that makes me eccentric,
and that makes it harder to find someone who understands me.
And the Pisces South Node, w/ Neptune in the 12th semi-square my Moon
And Mercury and Mars also in the 12th house (thats a cross to bear in itself)

posted March 20, 2009 07:58 PM         

Thank you for your post. Bear and I are doing well. I miss him like crazy (it is so much different this deployment since I am in Germany and his is in Iraq.. LOL).

I know what you mean.. seriously I do... There is always a stigma about suicide but no one knows until they feel that there is nothing left. I understand. I have been there and when I miscarried...yeah... I was there more than I can ever express. There was only one other time I felt that deep sadness but all I can say is... I cannot judge someone for being at that point because I understand that low.

Would I have felt better if I had posted about it? Nope... I am not that kind of person until I have processed what I have gone through ( I hope that makes sense). I am very guarded about my feelings until I have dealt with them. Maybe that is not as Saggie as I should be but I have always been that way.

posted March 20, 2009 08:03 PM         

you say he saved lives?
were they the lives of civilians?
or murderers?
did he fix em up
so they could go on killing?

i think everybody who went over their had a substantial dark side,
but, in most cases, it probably wasnt nearly as apparent until
they started joining in stupid wars and killing (or helping to kill) people.

It makes sense that he was an air sign,
since they can have trouble identifying and expressing their emotions.

I think it is great if they are going over there to stop an invasion, not to invade.
If they are feeding people and not bombing schools and mosques and government buildings.
If they are respecting and protecting the people and the people's culture, its fine.
But I have seen much too much evidence to suggest that these standards are not being met.

posted March 20, 2009 08:05 PM         

oh.

gosh I was afraid you'd do that with the astro stuff. That's your graceful way of saying bugger off, yes? gotcha

posted March 20, 2009 08:06 PM         

I think we understand each other more than we would ever admit. I am sorry for what you have gone through and continue to go through. While you and I have been polar opposites for most of our time here, we still have some things in common.

TINK,

I am so very sorry for what your daughter has gone through on her post. Sadly, it is such a reality that it is horrible. I think the Military has always had issues. Look at what we put them through and what we make them do. I have been here in Germany for almost two years and yet Bear and I have only had 2 weeks without interference- cumulative.

posted March 20, 2009 08:08 PM         

If you cannot understand when i say it in the simplest terms...

And astrology is beyond you (no doubt, this continues to be my fault)...

posted March 20, 2009 08:10 PM         

I hope you know that I have love for everyone.

Sometimes I feel it so intensely, for all of us.

That includes you.

We will always have the most important things in common.

posted March 20, 2009 08:11 PM         

He is also a UAV pilot. Did he contribute to those being killed.. Yes... He did. He secured the area, the special forces went in and took care of those planting IEDs.

Those IED's would have killed engineers going to places to rebuild schools and hospitals.

At the same time.. YES.. he did contribute to the death of those on specific lists. HIS UAV found the place, sent the message back and the Air Force bombed the hell out of it. It killed a top terrorist (and his Soldiers).

So yeah.. in that respect.. My husband killed.