posted March 13, 2014 12:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
I'm good with that.

No hard feelings to anyone.

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posted March 13, 2014 12:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
Well anyway...here are some wise words from our Cappy friend Kahlil Gibran regarding Crime and Punishment.

Crime and Punishment

"Then one of the judges of the city stood forth and said, 'Speak to us of Crime and Punishment.'
And he answered saying:

It is when your spirit goes wandering upon the wind,
That you, alone and unguarded, commit a wrong unto others and therefore unto yourself.
And for that wrong committed must you knock and wait a while unheeded at the gate of the blessed.

Like the ocean is your god-self;
It remains for ever undefiled.
And like the ether it lifts but the winged.
Even like the sun is your god-self;
It knows not the ways of the mole nor seeks it the holes of the serpent.

But your god-self does not dwell alone in your being.
Much in you is still man, and much in you is not yet man,
But a shapeless pygmy that walks asleep in the mist searching for its own awakening.

And of the man in you would I now speak.
For it is he and not your god-self nor the pygmy in the mist, that knows crime and the punishment of crime.

Oftentimes have I heard you speak of one who commits a wrong as though he were not one of you, but a stranger unto you and an intruder upon your world.

But I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you,
So the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.

And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree,
So the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all.

Like a procession you walk together towards your god-self.
You are the way and the wayfarers.
And when one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone.

Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone.
.....

For they stand together before the face of the sun even as the black thread and the white are woven together.
And when the black thread breaks, the weaver shall look into the whole cloth, and he shall examine the loom also.

If any of you would bring judgment the unfaithful wife,
Let him also weight the heart of her husband in scales, and measure his soul with measurements.

And let him who would lash the offender look unto the spirit of the offended.

And if any of you would punish in the name of righteousness and lay the axe unto the evil tree, let him see to its roots;
And verily he will find the roots of the good and the bad, the fruitful and the fruitless, all entwined together in the silent heart of the earth.

And you judges who would be just,
What judgment pronounce you upon him who though honest in the flesh yet is a thief in spirit?

What penalty lay you upon him who slays in the flesh yet is himself slain in the spirit?
And how prosecute you him who in action is a deceiver and an oppressor,
Yet who also is aggrieved and outraged?

And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?

Is not remorse the justice which is administered by that very law which you would fain serve?

Yet you cannot lay remorse upon the innocent nor lift it from the heart of the guilty.
Unbidden shall it call in the night, that men may wake and gaze upon themselves.

And you who would understand justice, how shall you unless you look upon all deeds in the fullness of light?

Only then shall you know that the erect and the fallen are but one man standing in twilight between the night of his pygmy-self and the day of his god-self,

And that the corner-stone of the temple is not higher than the lowest stone in its foundation.

---

posted March 13, 2014 01:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Just because something is law it doesn't make it right... The fact of the matter is drug charges should not be felonies. We can debate on whether drugs should be legalized or the morality of drugs all day long but drug charges should not be felonies. When someone is charged with a felony they are pretty much f*cked, thats reality. When you have a felony on your record getting a crappy job is pretty much impossible, never mind a good job. Then you have to consider the ramifications of long term incarceration. When you lock someone up and treat them like a child for long periods of time they lose the ability to function as a normal adult in most cases. Things like driving a car become terrifying if you haven't been in one in years. 9 times out of 10 when you lock someone up for a few years and then let them out into the world they cant find a job and they are just going to return to crime to survive. Thats why the justice system is often considered a "revolving door". Its not that people coming out of jail/prison dont want to do better, they do in most cases. unfortunately the system sets them up to fail. Our justice system is badly broken and needs a major overhaul. Charging someone with a felony and incarcerating them long term carries life altering implications and should be reserved for really serious crimes. Non-violent drug offenses do not warrant all of that. In fact the justice system is making things worse by charging druggies with felonies. Its not in anyones best interest to keep this madness going.

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posted March 13, 2014 01:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Haha

I'm lost about what we are debating about as I've pretty much agreed now.
Also it feels like being on a merry-go-round....exhausting.

I don't doubt all that and one could easily say that "this" hurts or feeds "that". I never once said that the systems in place couldn't be corrupt but a law is a law and we know them. We could go in circles forever and there's no point being made that I don't understand. How about some credit. I'm not ignorant, I just disagree with some things.

This is tiring and honestly becoming boring.

---

Sorry sometimes my Sag planets just enjoy a good debate, but I honestly don't think you're ignorant or unintelligent either. I guess my point was just that it's easy to justify things like buying gas because it's the only realistic option (I do it too), but those are the fortunate problems to have really. Going off what Pixie was saying, morally it's just hard to draw that black and white line between selling drugs and shopping at Lacoste knowing your clothes were made by people who work 80 hours a week only to continue living in poverty with no other options.

And honestly I don't judge people who shop at Lacoste (or wherever) cause I understand a lot of it comes down to how we were raised and it's all very complicated... I've worked retail so what kind of hypocrite would that make me lol. But that means I also don't judge other things considered "taboo" since the things that are glorified in American culture are equally comical.

posted March 13, 2014 01:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
Excellent point ^

However, I highly doubt that most people posting in this thread actually grasp the true concept of the cycle of poverty. Obviously, some of us do, and some do not.

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posted March 13, 2014 08:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
Yeah... It seems like a pretty basic concept to me but I guess a lot of people really do believe Murica is a meritocracy lol

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posted March 13, 2014 09:00 AM            

You say using drugs never hurt nobody. Why not extend it to prostitution as well? Why not insider trading? Don't hurt nobody. Just making myself a little moolah? Don't cost you a dime.

You say having a felony f* up you life. Then don't have a felony. Don't have misdemeanors either. Be an outstanding citizen and pay your taxes. How about that?

posted March 13, 2014 09:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
How about don't use drugs, don't distribute drugs, there will be no drugs, and therefore there will be no felonies.

You say using drugs never hurt nobody. Why not extend it to prostitution as well? Why not insider trading? Don't hurt nobody. Just making myself a little moolah? Don't cost you a dime.

You say having a felony f* up you life. Then don't have a felony. Don't have misdemeanors either. Be an outstanding citizen and pay your taxes. How about that?

100 kids on a playground. You have one naughty kid. You smack the kid up. The others see and learn their lesson. Then you'll have 99 good kids. You way is telling the kids that it's ok to be naughty.

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posted March 13, 2014 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Huh? How is punishing a kid like charging someone with a felony ? A felony follows someone for life..

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Then it's obvious isn't it? Don't commit a felony.

This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. And, this is your ass on drugs. In jail.

posted March 16, 2014 11:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Violets:
Just gonna quote myself here.

Crime and Punishment

"Then one of the judges of the city stood forth and said, 'Speak to us of Crime and Punishment.'
And he answered saying:

It is when your spirit goes wandering upon the wind,
That you, alone and unguarded, commit a wrong unto others and therefore unto yourself.
And for that wrong committed must you knock and wait a while unheeded at the gate of the blessed.

Like the ocean is your god-self;
It remains for ever undefiled.
And like the ether it lifts but the winged.
Even like the sun is your god-self;
It knows not the ways of the mole nor seeks it the holes of the serpent.

But your god-self does not dwell alone in your being.
Much in you is still man, and much in you is not yet man,
But a shapeless pygmy that walks asleep in the mist searching for its own awakening.

And of the man in you would I now speak.
For it is he and not your god-self nor the pygmy in the mist, that knows crime and the punishment of crime.

Oftentimes have I heard you speak of one who commits a wrong as though he were not one of you, but a stranger unto you and an intruder upon your world.

But I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you,
So the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.

And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree,
So the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all.

Like a procession you walk together towards your god-self.
You are the way and the wayfarers.
And when one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone.

Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone.
.....

For they stand together before the face of the sun even as the black thread and the white are woven together.
And when the black thread breaks, the weaver shall look into the whole cloth, and he shall examine the loom also.

If any of you would bring judgment the unfaithful wife,
Let him also weight the heart of her husband in scales, and measure his soul with measurements.

And let him who would lash the offender look unto the spirit of the offended.

And if any of you would punish in the name of righteousness and lay the axe unto the evil tree, let him see to its roots;
And verily he will find the roots of the good and the bad, the fruitful and the fruitless, all entwined together in the silent heart of the earth.

And you judges who would be just,
What judgment pronounce you upon him who though honest in the flesh yet is a thief in spirit?

What penalty lay you upon him who slays in the flesh yet is himself slain in the spirit?
And how prosecute you him who in action is a deceiver and an oppressor,
Yet who also is aggrieved and outraged?

And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?

Is not remorse the justice which is administered by that very law which you would fain serve?

Yet you cannot lay remorse upon the innocent nor lift it from the heart of the guilty.
Unbidden shall it call in the night, that men may wake and gaze upon themselves.

And you who would understand justice, how shall you unless you look upon all deeds in the fullness of light?

Only then shall you know that the erect and the fallen are but one man standing in twilight between the night of his pygmy-self and the day of his god-self,

And that the corner-stone of the temple is not higher than the lowest stone in its foundation.

---

posted March 17, 2014 12:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by T:

*appreciated

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posted March 17, 2014 10:24 AM            

Life in prison seems excessive.

No I don't promote drug use, I just think at that age it seemed to be more about peer pressure and party than common sense.

------------------

posted March 17, 2014 12:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lalalinda:
No I don't promote drug use, I just think at that age it seemed to be more about peer pressure and party than common sense.

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And thus it makes sense that America voted in the last three Presidents from that era who could not refrain from "partying," subjecting themselves to "peer pressure," and not making much "common sense." Politicans unfit to clean latrines (that would be offending bathrooms... sorry), let alone occupy the White House.

posted March 17, 2014 01:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Just because something is law it doesn't make it right... The fact of the matter is drug charges should not be felonies. We can debate on whether drugs should be legalized or the morality of drugs all day long but drug charges should not be felonies. When someone is charged with a felony they are pretty much f*cked, thats reality. When you have a felony on your record getting a crappy job is pretty much impossible, never mind a good job. Then you have to consider the ramifications of long term incarceration. When you lock someone up and treat them like a child for long periods of time they lose the ability to function as a normal adult in most cases. Things like driving a car become terrifying if you haven't been in one in years. 9 times out of 10 when you lock someone up for a few years and then let them out into the world they cant find a job and they are just going to return to crime to survive. Thats why the justice system is often considered a "revolving door". Its not that people coming out of jail/prison dont want to do better, they do in most cases. unfortunately the system sets them up to fail. Our justice system is badly broken and needs a major overhaul. Charging someone with a felony and incarcerating them long term carries life altering implications and should be reserved for really serious crimes. Non-violent drug offenses do not warrant all of that. In fact the justice system is making things worse by charging druggies with felonies. Its not in anyones best interest to keep this madness going.

---

Law is law.... "right" or not... It is and as long as it is expect the punishment. Not ready for it? Don't break the law.

posted March 17, 2014 02:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Law is law.... "right" or not... It is and as long as it is expect the punishment. Not ready for it? Don't break the law.

---

You can keep saying the same thing over and over again as often as you'd care to. Making that argument has not changed my stance on this one bit, for the people who choose to think that laws should not be broken simply because they're laws.

I could make numerous arguments against that particular mentality, but again...pointless and not worth the effort.

Let's allow this thread to just go the way of the dinosaur, shall we?

Those of us who have strong beliefs on this topic are not likely to change them, no matter how many times one person says "This law isn't just, and it's detrimental to society", or how many times another person says "The law is the law, so be prepared for the consequences if you break the law", ad nauseam.

Let's just give it a rest.

It's personal for a number of people here, with family members and loved ones incarcerated or still fighting addiction.

posted March 17, 2014 02:45 PM            

Why do I have to be sensitive to the rights of other families when you guys aren't sensitive to mine?

Just so happens that the law is on my side and not yours.

posted March 17, 2014 03:01 PM            

I have noisy neighbors and the things I'd like to do, I can't, so I don't.
The law is documented, it's enforced, it's laid out for everyone. That's all FACT, not speculation, not questionable. The laws exist,the punishment exists. I'm not going to do anything regardless of how I feel it should be if I am not willing to accept the punishment, no matter how I feel about it.

Would I like to slap the sh*t out of my neighbors, yell at them and turn the crap down myself? You bet I would but I control myself and take the road that I know is legal. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks, or what our opinion is. The law doesn't care about your or my opinion, it cares about what it can prove and what is documented.

What can make our opinions heard is places like this that are the kinds of places to ask for change. http://www.change.org/petition

Here accomplishes very little. What I've said I don't even feel is opinion. If I march over and slap my neighbor I can expect to go to jail, so I don't do it. It's fact. Sell drugs, expect the punishment if caught. It's all fact.
Disagree, want change, take the needed steps.

posted March 17, 2014 03:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Try to be mindful of the rights of my family, who I have no desire to be exposed to this nonsense being espoused.

Why do I have to be sensitive to the rights of other families when you guys aren't sensitive to mine?

Just so happens that the law is on my side and not yours.

Do the crime, do the time.

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posted March 17, 2014 03:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Violets:
Is your family reading this? No.
Your point is invalid.

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