posted November 15, 2012 02:46 AM            

Sorry for the delay, work has been hectic and I tend to grow exceedingly emotional as winter dawns. One's ASC tells a lot about how they feel through the seasons, and Aries ASC can be prone to introversion as the Sun makes its way to the opposite side of the equator. For me, that means a lot of alone time, introspection, and reflection. The Sun has crossed into my 8th, so the internalizing isn't too surprising. The only real frustration is, a path through my 8th House always ends in a Venus transit. I can always count on Autumn to be full of angst. LOL

There is a bittersweet flavor to this part of the year. I have to catch my self whenever I start fixating on the pointlessness of existing. Understanding aimlessness can be a struggle for Virgo Saturn, who believes there should be order, function, and reason for everything. This results in occasionally viewing aimlessness as a flaw. Unfortunately aimlessness is the key to many a good thing and that means moments of Virgo Saturn feeling occasionally useless and out of sorts (which can lead to depression if not responded to immediately). Overall this time of year is a magical one for me, but also a time of internal and existential conflict.

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Originally posted by Faith:
I'm writing now even though it's not an opportune time....I'm trying not to eat the snickerdoodle cookies that she made earlier, all by herself.

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Originally posted by Faith:
I have been making headway with my diet, often eating just oranges and a handful of raw sunflower seeds for breakfast, and more raw food later, enjoying a little more vibrancy in my life because of it. I always forget how nice alkalinity feels until I'm in the alkaline moment. Then it's like remembering how real life is supposed to feel.

But despite my better diet, something seems tangled between me and the universe today...'Ever feel like life is just too darn weird, from every angle, to deal with? It's the kind of day where I just want to sit in a tree, bird watching. Or watching salamanders...because what ARE they doing, crawling all over the place? You never see them working or eating, just going for these long hikes. Suddenly I'm annoyed that I don't know why.

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Speaking of intoxication, I hope your journey into those realms was a success. =)

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Originally posted by Faith:
This has led to my love of wool, and Alpaca wool especially. I suppose as a vegan you might find this rather brutal, but I don't know if it bothers the animals too much.

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Originally posted by Faith:
Wool blankets are especially neat because I can wrap them around me and wander around outside pretending I'm an Indian.

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Originally posted by Faith:
Is it accurate to say that Scorpio always wants the TRUTH, good and bad, the whole truth? So you can embrace discomfort if it's just part of the relationship's true, deep, real nature?

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You are correct in your assessment, as long as long as it refers not to "universal truths" but a "demeanor of honesty". That is one of the things which separates Scorpio from Sag. Both are obsessed with TRUTH, but Scorpio is focused on manifest or evident truth, being honest about the over all vibe of a situation, identifying and being honest about the minute subtleties of an interaction, accepting that a person is acting underhanded or shady and accepting them regardless; as long as they don't insult the Scorpio's intelligence by trying to convince them they are not being shady. Sagittarius on the other hand, is focused on unmanifest or potential truths (you said you loved me 5 years ago, but things have changed and your feelings are different, we obviously need to part ways), laws, philosophies, and spiritual practices which help people discover meaning, purpose, and "God", and calling to the light all the hidden things Scorpio discovers. This is part of the reason Sag is associated with being salesmen and preachers, because part our understanding of potential truth can result in a need to win others over to our view, to prove our philosophy is right.

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Originally posted by Faith:
The key thing is, it's got to be a hidden kind of pain for me, not something obvious like they are drinking all day and crying all night.

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Originally posted by Faith:
All in all, let me just say that today especially, I don't understand relationships, they are just so weird... I wonder what romantic love is all about in a Buddhist context...ultimately, do relationships with people tend to impinge on the ability of a person to forge a monogamous relationship with pure life itself....or something?

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There are different views on it. The only agreed upon view is the 3rd of the 5 precepts (similar to the 10 commandments), "I vow to abstain from sexual misconduct". The monastery I stayed at elaborates the precepts for better understanding by westerners

"True Love

Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I am committed to cultivating responsibility and learning ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. Knowing that sexual desire is not love, and that sexual activity motivated by craving always harms myself as well as others, I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without true love and a deep, long-term commitment made known to my family and friends. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct. Seeing that body and mind are one, I am committed to learning appropriate ways to take care of my sexual energy and cultivating loving kindness, compassion, joy and inclusiveness – which are the four basic elements of true love – for my greater happiness and the greater happiness of others. Practicing true love, we know that we will continue beautifully into the future."

I think this is a difficult question to answer because so many factors are involved. Depending on one's practice, romantic love can have different consequences. For a monastic, romantic love is an attachment. It is an animal and biological desire to devote one's loving energies to a single group or person. As a species we are built to desire the love of others as a way to diversify the genetic excellence of our species. There is no valid logical, spiritual, or psychological reason for a monastic to pursue romantic love and here are the reasons why:

A monastic is trained to observe and accept their desires, but not feed them - Part of our struggle in this life is learning to overcome our attachments to objects, this includes the biological desires which will not result in death if ignored. Learning to master one's mind also entails overcoming one's attachment to insisting their biological urges be met.

A monastic is trained to see the world of attachment as suffering - Attachment is suffering because it is based on two great lies. First, the lie that whatever we are attached to is a solid, existing, object. And second, the lie that the object we are attached to will somehow stay that object forever. When we meet a person and fall in love with them, we fall in love with them for meeting certain physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual needs. But we are attached to the idea of the person and suffering arises as both parties change and evolve. Eventually our partner gets sick, or dies and though it is a natural part of life, we suffer greatly, because the image we are attached to was not permanent as we would have liked them to be.

There was a story about the Buddha meeting with a Queen. She commented on how she loved having children and wished she could have as many children as people in her kingdom, to which the Buddha replied, "You would be attending funerals every day". Much of romantic love is based on our idea of love. The Moon is involved astrologically, because romantic love has a lot to do with our comfort and our perceived needs. Monastics are trained to look inside for comfort, to become the self-nurturer to all the needs we normally pawn off on other people.

A monastic is trained to experience love without having to filter it through external objects - Monks and Nuns spend their time meditating in order to build a deeper understanding of their self. All the little quirks and eccentricities become attractive and valuable as they deepen their appreciation of self. Skillful meditation leads to a strong sense of self-sufficiency and self-love. I have never been close enough to a monastic to hear a lot about their daily struggles, but they do share with each other and I am sure there are many (especially for new monastics). What I have experienced is a deep ability to be present for others, a fearless and familiar level of inclusion, humor, lightheartedness, and intense vulnerability. Monastics who meditate well, walk around with a similar confidence found in couples who enjoy a stable and well functioning relationship. They know "inside" is a safe and loving place to retreat, and they spend as much time as possible interacting with the external world from "inside".

In my personal opinion (which is by no means an educated one), I would say the Buddha taught that romantic love is necessary and best left to those who are not prepared to practice without it. Anyone can reach nirvana, from the lowest realms to the highest realms, so it is possible to attain while in a romantic relationship. Monasticism is about refining one's conditions however and there is too much opportunity for attachment in romance. Just before the Buddha left his palace to pursue enlightenment, he received word that his wife (who he loved very much) gave birth to his first child. He named his son Rāhula which means "impediment", because the news caused him to second guess pursuing his path. I think the Buddha understood and appreciated all kinds of love as well as the attachments which those loves arise from. Ultimately when the Buddha awoke, he didn't then keep the end of suffering to his self, he returned to his old mediating buddies and taught them how to wake up, then he taught the world. From the outside Buddhism sounds very selfish, but the main reason for ending one's suffering is not to then run away and enjoy the fruits, but to become a skillful person. A person who contributes to and uplifts others on their path to ending their own suffering.

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Originally posted by Faith:
I have no idea why I'd even want to do yoga." I've just been inching my way in that direction over time because I discovered how much I like Ayurvedic medicine, then Indian food, then Indian movies and culture. Finally I think I might be able to do some yoga without feeling this ridiculous, nagging sense that I am just being trendy, playing the New Age game because that's the nature of conformity.

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I realized in that moment that I was being told to smile, because I was then showing my body what to do while I meditate. Instead, my pride left my body to having to figure it out on its own. I don't think there is any harm in faking it until you make it, as long as one is determined to eventually make it. As long as something results in benefit, aversion to participate in something "trendy" is just another attachment.

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Originally posted by Faith:
Undoubtedly Lord Coconut was pleased with this offering, the baby was released from the hospital and is home feeling well!! Thank you for helping out. =)

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Originally posted by Faith:
Without bodies and biology, are we even sisters? What makes us sisters but memory of a once-existing biological fact then? How long does energy carry the signature of the biology it once inhabited/shaped?

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Originally posted by Faith:
Also my sister's mucous might say a lot about her health, which is extremely run-down. She is schizophrenic/bi-polar, a disease that might be managed by medicine, IF someone could get her take it. If she took it, I might be able to talk to her and have a relationship with her. But because of her non-medicated biology right now, it's impossible for me. We may be sisters but act like strangers; I haven't talked to her in years.

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Perhaps this is my perspective because I have interacted with spirits on many occasions and their consistency was just as imaginary as when I imagine a dead relative. I know in both cases they feel real and in the cases where I haven't known the dead person in their living years, the person they do know is convinced I am talking to their loved one. I'm okay with it just being a matter of perspective, though I believe my idea of remaining connected to people who die is a much more enjoyable perspective then the grief of convincing one's self they have somehow decayed away with their body.

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Originally posted by Faith:
Maybe for you, because you are loyal, she would still be your friend regardless of her behavior. But sometimes when people lose their body parts like that they become bitter and difficult to be around. Their personality changes. Then the nature of the friendliness between the two of you, the substance of the connection, changes into something different.

I was watching a video about 80-10-10 the other day, and the girl said that she is a completely new person now that she's been on this diet for many years. Totally new person. What's she mean by that? Is her soul modified? Her spirit? Personality? What exactly, beyond her biology, has been changed by her biology?

I mean, you can look at my fingernails and say they are just part of the husk or you can say they are holographic, they have the story of my life and essence encoded in them, and if I become a new person by detoxifying...if I become more open-hearted and joyful and easier to be around...my fingernails will partake in that simultaneously. If I cut them off, that doesn't cut off the mind-body interaction in process that gave rise to them and their unique nature, reflective of who I was as I was growing them.

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The universe is a big place and there is room for both Holographic and Newtonian forces to coexist. Anyone who tells you a person who has died, has not died, has trouble seeing. But anyone who tells you a person who you can still feel, is completely gone with the loss of their body, is missing an equally important sense.

You are perfectly right in your explanation of cutting your fingernails and I challenge you to extend that perspective to the idea of being cut off from one's whole body. Where does that "mind-body interaction" go after one has let go of the body? Does it follow the body into the elements of the earth? And what of the "emotion-body interaction"? Do the impressions one has left upon you continue as part of their own uniquely evolving nature? And if that is true, is that person's life not still continuing regardless of their no longer having a body?

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
I can love someone I don't even know just because I know I want them.

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
Hey Xiiro; what do you think of out of sign aspects? Do the signs affect anything or are the interpretations changes at all, do you think?

For example with me...Moon in Aquarius square Mercury in Libra.

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Every one of my Venus aspects are like this:
Scorpio Venus conjunct Sagittarius Ceres (signs are naturally semi-sextile)
Scorpio Venus qunicunx Cancer Jupiter (signs are naturally trine)
Scorpio Venus quincunx Taurus Chiron (signs are naturally opposed)
Venus in Scorpio square Saturn Virgo (Signs are naturally sextile)
Poor Venus.

In cases like this I assume the harmonies are very harmonious while the disharmonies are very disharmonious. For example, your Moon in Aquarius and Mercury in Libra may create an ironclad fantasy world which feels like a safe place for you to retreat, but the struggle is found in the Fixed/Cardinal nature of both planets. Your challenge is to break out of your comfortable world. The comfort you find in being in your own head is counterproductive to your ability to be social and relate with others. The problem is, you feel comfortable in your imagination, so this is a challenge to pioneer out of your comfort zone. In order to have healthy relationships you must find a balance between conscious extroversion and conscious introversion. You are not allowed to emotionally separate your self from others while intellectually interacting with them on the outside. You must invest all of your self into your daily activities and face the harsh truth that the world is not perfect and is not intended to be controlled from afar, so you can manipulate it into your version of perfection. Only when you can face the world fully and honestly, completely present, will you reap the true value of your interactions with others.

posted November 15, 2012 01:28 PM            

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Xiiro: Understanding aimlessness can be a struggle for Virgo Saturn, who believes there should be order, function, and reason for everything. This results in occasionally viewing aimlessness as a flaw

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Pisces S-turn! I appreciate aimlessness. Sometimes I feel like life is very inconsequential - we're so small and we live for such a short time and there's so many of us. Sure, we're important to the people we know, but then again, they're just as small. The people we know are important to the people they know, and so on until you lose yourself. We're all just faces in the crowd, drops in the ocean, so who will notice or who should care if you indulge in a little laziness? I guess it's kinda apathetic, but the answer is only as important as you make it.

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Xiiro: Poor Venus.

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Nyahahahaha my Venus and S-turn are in a tight trine. People have such a low opinion of him! But I think, because of the Venus influences (trine, Seventh house, Pisces), he goes easier on me maybe? I dunno I never saw how he could be so "harsh". Maybe I just haven't experienced it yet...? I dunno, l o l.

I never viewed it as restriction, per se, but the imposing of structure. A house needs walls, right? Jupiter may say, "I want this many rooms" or "the house should face this way", "I like this lot, not the other lot"...but S-turn is the one left to build it or cross off what isn't in budget, right?

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Xiiro: ...is not intended to be controlled from afar, so you can manipulate it into your version of perfection.

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posted November 15, 2012 04:09 PM            

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
LOL I love it! How does the square feel?

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In your case the square would likely feel like your intellectual desire to be social and feed your mind by relating to others, can not exist simultaneously with your desire to wander off into the familiar realms of your imagination.

Sort of being comfortable daydreaming about relationships vs actually going out and having them. When these signs are trining, the person utilizes imagination to include people into their world and better relate with others socially. When squaring however, both of those forces become so powerful, they are unable to work together. One must always be dominant and the lesson is to learn to synthesize their energies by figuring out how to make them take turns.

The whole thing about squares is (like their angle on the wheel), they represent a point when energies hit a crossroads. You can either go this way, or that way, but not both. In many cases it is easier to choose the path of least resistance (determined by other aspects and conditions). Whatever the situation, in the "general" use of squares a compromise must be struck allowing both energies a fair share of the spotlight. Squares are related to the 4th harmonic, which is associated with Cancer. The lines are clearly drawn between both planets (this is YOUR side, this is MY side...stay on your side!). In order for functionality to reign supreme however, both planets must want to nurture each other's needs, with the intention of working together peacefully. Sacrifice for the sake of peace and putting other's needs above one's own are both Cancerian traits, however selfishness and manipulation to one's benefit are also associated with the sign.

posted November 17, 2012 05:24 AM            

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
^Oh!!!! I mean your Venus/S-turn square!!!! Sorry lmfao I should have specified.

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Ahh sorry.

Virgo Saturn 5H square Scorpio Venus 8H:

Well Saturn square Venus is not a horribly easy experience. I think one of the hardest things is the constant feeling that the things I appreciate are not practical or even applicable to reality. Venus is not looked at as part of the whole, she is seen as negligible and frivolous.

The 5th House is the area of our life where we express our individual self, yet it is also the area of our life where we discover our self. Having Saturn here imposes rules on the process of being and experiencing one's self. It is difficult for me to be myself without "arranging" being myself. When being and experiencing are so strongly fabricated, I often miss the point of experiencing altogether. This is part of the reason why I have a lot of insights on existence, because the process of existing feels manufactured to me and there are quantifiable and methodical patterns to all possible outcomes. Sadly, the act of existing is just traveling from point A to point B without the experiencing part.

There is a very difficult to describe feeling with this planet in this house. There is a feeling of being irreversibly damaged, fundamentally wired so poorly that one completely misses the point of being a self. When Virgo is involved, it leads to the constant and repetitive understanding that being does not come naturally to me. Whenever there is an irreparable flaw, Virgo salvages what it can and scraps the rest, but you can't scrap the self. This is the equivalent to the idea of a Virgo spilling wine on their white shirt. They can't just take off their shirt, so they are stuck walking around with a big red mark on their shirt, exclaiming to the world that they are dirty and flawed.

This is not a great place for Virgo to be, because she will not involve herself with anything else until she is able to go home and scrub out her shirt. So for me, the 5H is a big party that I am so preoccupied with not understanding how to participate in, that I completely miss the enjoyment of the experience.

Being squared my Scorpio Venus all the things associated with Venus is Scorpio are experienced as forbidden because they lead me into destructive situations. With Venus in its position and Uranus in the 7th I naturally gravitate toward romantic situations that can later become destructive. The problem is, Saturn and Venus are in a position where they can't work together, so when I am being lead by Venus, my rational and discerning side completely vanishes.

I recently watched a show where a guy stalked and created a deep connection with a young woman, just to attempt to kill her at the end. She actually ends up stabbing him in self-defense and while he is bleeding out on the ground, he confesses that he decided to murder her the moment he first saw her. My Venus configuration finds this story romantic.... and it's not, it's psycho. This would be fine if my Saturn was allowed to play, but by the time Saturn is allowed back in the room I have already invited psycho guy back to my place. LOL

The problem with a Mutable/Fixed square, is the Fixed sign has a lot more determination to get what it wants, than the Mutable sign is interested in fighting over. In a fair fight between my Venus and Saturn, Venus wins every time. And that problem extends even beyond romantic prospects. The things that I appreciate because they result in me feeling emotionally stable and secure (Venus 8H), tend to worsen my difficulty with being a self.

The key (I think) is figuring out how to enjoy and experience being my self, without feeling flawed and disconnected. Then directing my Venus toward that stable sense of existing. If I can learn to love my self, I can guarantee that love is not destructive. The problem comes down to finding a way to love myself as a flawed individual. My Saturn is in a grand trine with Chiron and Mercury and that means feeling mutated, fixating on being mutated, and needing to devote all my time toward figuring out how to fix my mutation are easy places for me to find myself.

posted November 17, 2012 07:32 AM            

Dear Xiiro,

Thanks so much for the amazing, long post above. I'm in the process of getting my thoughts together for a reply.

In the meanwhile...after seeing how Red got you to explain your Venus/Saturn, I'm wondering if I could ask again for you to explain your Saturn/Mercury mutual reception? Because your mind really intrigues me, and I'm just plain greedy for more writing from you ~ as usual.

But no worries if you're not interested in explaining. 'Thought I'd give it one more try.

Happy pomegranate eating!

posted November 17, 2012 01:49 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
I'm wondering if I could ask again for you to explain your Saturn/Mercury mutual reception?

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Sorry about that, when I don't answer a question, it is often because I get so caught up in responding to other parts of a post, that I forget. If I don't want to talk about something for personal reasons, I'll just say I'm not interested in discussing it.

Unfortunately I am about to head out to my friend's house to house/pet sit and she has no internet. =P

So I'm posting this reply to say thank you for reminding me about your request and I will work on answering it over the weekend.

I hope both your weekends are about to be awesome,

posted November 17, 2012 02:03 PM            

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Xiiro: It's all quite wonky.

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Sounds like it! Each chart is so unique and what not! Wow.

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Faith: after seeing how Red got you to explain your Venus/Saturn, I'm wondering if I could ask again for you to explain your...

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posted November 18, 2012 11:18 PM            

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
So I'm posting this reply to say thank you for reminding me about your request and I will work on answering it over the weekend.

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Here is what I came up with:

I meditated on your question over the weekend and what originally seemed like a simple answer became complex quite quickly. I have provided below the simple details, the isolated interaction between Mercury and Saturn in my chart. The complex details involve Saturn and Mercury's associated planets and is a lengthy project to conquor. I admit, I have given my Earth Grand Trine little thought (because out the gate, Earth sign plantes don't tend to be "exciting" for me to explore). Thank you for the opportunity to sit down and meditate on this aspect of my self, it has opend up a whole new understanding about how my entire chart functions.

The Simple Answer -

As mentioned in my response to Red, my natal Saturn placement is a challenge for me. Another way I would describe this energy is to imagine you awake in a room filled with all sorts of tools and devices. You have no idea how you got there, why you are there, or who you are. You notice other people in the room seem to just "get" how to use the tools they are given and though the concept behind each tool is apparent, you still have no idea why you are here and what you are supposed to do with them. Often times you see others excelling in the use of specific tools, and watch them go on to become experts. You on the other hand seem to be able to imagine all sorts of uses for each tool, but looking around, you notice they are all not supposed to be warn as hats. All tools seem equally useful, no one tool seems to stand out as specifically interesting, and the tools you do use, all tend to end up being warn as a hat. You think, "perhaps my "thing" is, I am here to teach people how to wear their tools as hats!" but you don't particularly feel that is your calling, it's just something silly that has very little practical use and the concept altogether is such a limited one anyway. Being a self feels like that to me. I feel as though I awoke into this world with a completely insubstantial comprehension of self (Sun/Neptune) which resulted in a complete disassociation between my self and how to "Be" my self.

When I was a child I loved to perform, but hated to read aloud in front of a class. Performing came easy because it was practical and coreographed. It only required memorization and the infusion of any emotion related to the memorized material. When reading aloud, I struggled with being perceived as stupid, because in order to read quickly, I can't pay attention to what I am reading. When I do pay attention, my mind has to take each word and associate it with the whole of the sentence. If I was asked to read aloud and then asked a question about what I just read, it was an even more terrifying experience. I sometimes had to read things over several times, just to understand what they meant. The weird part is, I had a 12th grade vocabulary in the 3rd grade. I knew what each word meant, because that information could be gained by memorization. I really needed time to associate each word if my intention was to comprehend the message behind the sentence. Every comprehensable thing is like that for me in this life. I can understand each individual part with excruciating depth once the time has been taken to "memorize" it, but I require many checks, balances, ponderings, and double checks before I am capable of seeing the whole associated picture. This results in feeling stupid a lot of the time and being treated like I am stupid because simple "no brainer" naturally occurring stuff can seem like rocket surgery to me.

Virgo HATES this to no end and can not just stand by while it takes place... It is akin to walking around in public with a neon sign that reads "I'm A Fu*king Idiot". No matter the situation, there is always the cloud of "yes, but you fail at life", which follows me around and endlessly comments on whatever I am doing ("Don't cook that, it's just going to taste like crap because you didn't understand the recipe", "Don't talk to those people, they will engege you in spontaneous conversation, you will get lost over something they say, and respond with something stupid or offensive; proving you never really understood the conversation in the first place", "Don't start that business, you are going to overlook something and end up getting hunted down by the IRS", "Whenever you interact with people, they can tell that you are fundamentally lost on the concept of being your self", "Great, you ate something bad for you and now your stomach hurts, apparently you have difficulty with the whole concept of "Eating" too", "Don't look over at that cop, you will do something clumsy and he will become suspicious of you," etc..).

Houses of each element begin with the objectification and solidification of the element. The next house of the same element deals with how one integrates their individualized version of the element with the external world. And the final house of the each element represents our ability to apply our experiences with that element, in a universal and collective way. In the case of the Fire Houses, House 1 deals with how we establish and imagine an objectified verson of self. House 5 represents our ability to integrate self with the external world and therefor gain a new perspective of "self" as "who I am among the many". Finally, House 9 represents our ability to comprehend and develop collective selfhood, or the reason and implementation of why we all go through the experience of establishing and integrating a self. With Mercury here, constant attention is paid to uncovering the reason we all exist. Much of my life is about learning and applying experiences to a database of "why we are here". While trine my Saturn in the 5th, it adds a deeper dimension to Saturn's struggle. The whole ordeal becomes a challenge of the spirit. Cap Mercury in the 9th slows things down a lot for me too. Really, this planet should be considered in the light of its opposition to Jupiter, because their House/Planetary position are in STRONG mutual reception. My Mercury doesn't much function alone, but as a Mercury/Jupiter mechanism. I can't just perceive data as it zooms by, I MUST "learn" from every shread of data which passes through Mercury. This is the main reason everything must go through a system of checks before it is understood and associated. Mercury is inspired by Saturn to do its thing as a safeguard, it double checks everything and keeps me from f-ing up all the time. It also helps me become psychotically resillient when I do mess somethign up, because I am able to utilize any previously memorized resource to respond overwhelmingly well to whatever issues arise. Saturn looks at it as, "If you can't fix what is inside, at least be prepared to clean up your mess". Generally these two planets act as the angel and devil on my shoulder, where Saturn is constantly tearing me down, Mercury is reminding me that eventually there is a pay off, that this struggle will not last forever, though I may not know what to do now, I will eventually understand the point, and the challenge results in depth of character (which is ultimately what my Saturn is looking for, a reason to look at self as something to be proud of).

I know all this sounds so final. I make a lot of comments outright stating that I am fundamentally flawed and I understand those kind of comments are harsh. It is important to remember however that Saturn and Mercury both trine Chiron in 1H. Chiron is referred to as the wound that will never heal, but through its pain we can learn to heal others. It has also been called our developmental disability, our handycap, or the crippling mutation which we must endure. In the First House, Chiron causes us to feel developmentally disabled in the way we form and establish an objectified sense of self. The concept of manufacturing and establishing a self, no matter how well explained, no matter how much someone hand-holds you through the process, is something that you just can't seem to grasp. And in a sense, that inability to grasp the process of establishing a self cripples you. I may "appear" to have a well established self based on my method of communication and my experiences (Mercury/Jupiter), but it is a well fabricated construct based on the social habits I have picked up and the things I have discovered people most easily interact and associate with. The part of my being which I experience as individual or personal is just patterns of indescribable forces. What I associate with as "ME" can't be put into words or filtered through conceptual, physical, intellectual, or even emotional means. It's just too "big". If I say, "That makes me sad." That statement is untrue, because sadness is one tiny response (though probably the socially acceptable one) to a situation which can be perceived from so many different perspectives. Sure, the experience may be tragic, but there are infinite amounts of benefits, there are an infinite amount of other things more tragic, there are an infinite amount of aspects involve that may actually be humorous, fortunitous, or ironic, etc.. I experience all those things at the same time when I experience and no one response shines over the others. The time I take to associate an experience, is time taken selecting the appropriate response for the situation. Basically the concept of being a self for me, is like rummaging through a vast closet of hats seeking the best one for each occasion.

Essentially My Chiron, Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter Kite deals with a struggle to comprehend the process of being and individual, while my Sun/Neptune, Mars, ASC/Eris/SN, and DSC/Pluto/NN Kite deals with what exists when a self can not be established. Sort of like the movie "Hedwig and The Angry Inch". it's about a boy raised in comunist East Berlin, who catches the eye of an American soldier and is convinced by the soldier and his mother to get a sex change operation, so he can marry the soldier and move to America. Sadly the procedure is poorly done and he is left with no genitals at all. The movie is about discovering what we are, when we are neither male nor female.

posted November 19, 2012 09:57 PM            

For whatever reason, I strongly relate to a lot of what you wrote above. What often happens when I read your writing is, for a second I almost think that I wrote it. Because I understand it so clearly.

Maybe you are just touching on some universal themes (like we all have to compress the bigness of our experiences into the smallness of words, with an eye to expectations) OR maybe it's the similarities in our charts OR something else.

I just did the new color chart at astro.com; they say Jupiter is my dominant planet, followed by the sun. Walter Pullen (whoever he is) has Sag as my dominant sign. I don't put much stock in these weighted charts, but I do know that I have a very bouncy, loud, frolicking puppy energy inside that is not consistent with Capricorn.

Yet I express myself, usually, in these careful words that I can agonize over for way too long.

Hmmm

I am actually depressed for once tonight, I've been sleeping poorly with distressing dreams, and then letting hassles bother me out of proportion. Tomorrow is my daughter's birthday, and I'm stressing about making it a good one. There are a lot of other ingredients in my stress salad but it would be tedious to describe it.

I just popped in to let you know that I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question, I get happy about how well you can answer these things. And in a few days I hope to write a bunch of other stuff that makes a little bit of sense.

With gratitude.

posted November 21, 2012 02:16 PM            

Birthday party went off without a hitch, except my whole family has colds. It's a bright, sunny day and I've been loafing around inside because every time I stand up, I get woozy. This post is written from a stuffy head (even stuffier than Capricorn usually is!) so I have to beg your pardon if it sucks. I aimed for quality control, honest.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Overall this time of year is a magical one for me, but also a time of internal and existential conflict.

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Is it better now?

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
There is a fusion of Plutonian/childhood while mining rubies out of a sticky orb, with purple stained fingers, and then filling your mouth just to experience that crunchy, juicy burst. It is so rare that Pluto + Innocence = something appropriate and not appalling.

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I love pomegranates, too. Even though I get "rumblies in the tumblies" if I eat too much. 'Didn't know what you were talking about with Pluto so I looked it up. Unfortunately, I've never developed the knack for following the convoluted, incest-ridden family tree of the planets in mythology, so this was a challenge to comprehend. I just read that Ceres and Jupiter were brother and sister AND husband and wife and thought, "Oh please! Don't ruin astrology for me, I don't want to know!" It's like I have a learning disorder. But talking to you helps me overcome it because I want to follow what you are saying.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
I have a friend who owns 3 alpaca and spins their wool into yarn. It is soft and the pacas are very cute (for tiny camels with fershnakaty teeth). They even had an alpaca who developed a neurological disorder and built her an alpaca wheel chair, for her hind legs.

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Does it get any better than this?? I want alpacas myself and would like to spin and knit their wool. It really is divinely soft and warm. I have alpaca mittens and my heart swells to think about how beautiful and warm they are. They're red with grey inside but I can reverse them. Like manual mood rings, they can advertise my mood: red or grey.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Scorpio is always on the look out for what is "really" going on and this means constantly being aware of changes which could threaten their emotional investments. Scorpio tends to be trusting in the beginning of their lives, but that can fade depending on how dishonest people have been with them as they grew.

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Nodding. Makes total sense. I have become more jaded over time, and suppose this could be attributed to my growth toward Scorpiohood (NN) as well as my failure, so far, to develop enough relationships that suit my need for emotional depth and stark reality. Somethin' like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
This is part of the reason Sag is associated with being salesmen and preachers, because part our understanding of potential truth can result in a need to win others over to our view, to prove our philosophy is right.

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OH...LOL I see that now! In some people (like you) I think this works out fine, because your philosophy is inclusive and more evolved.

But I've seen Sag "preachers" go south, too.

Preaching for any sign is a precarious calling, you either help people or f*ck them up/annoy them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Oh not me, the more mutated the better. I think I have wired my self to believe more externally mutated, equates to internal perfection. Not the greatest approach to romantic prospects.

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I think you have a point. Any time I see someone dressed in all black, with skull jewelry and a pincushion face, that's the person I want to go up to and say, "Hey, can you tell me where the restroom is?" because I've found these people to be sweet and polite with sonorous voices. But your man Charlie Hunnam doesn't look like that. Can you show me a picture of someone who looks mutated and is attractive to you? *curious*

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
The Moon is involved astrologically, because romantic love has a lot to do with our comfort and our perceived needs. Monastics are trained to look inside for comfort, to become the self-nurturer to all the needs we normally pawn off on other people.

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Thanks so, so much for your explanations here. I have been struggling to figure out what the ultimate ideal is: self-sufficiency in love, or a blending of two people, or communal interdependency...or what. To me, if self-love is the absolute pinnacle of the love experience, it would seem to make "lesser" loves almost obsolete. Like, why waste your energy on romance when you could be attaining the Holy Grail? So I look to the philosophy of others' to see how they ascribe value to romantic love...to see if I can reach any conclusions about it being somehow essential. But after exploring others' ideas, I come away with the disconcerting conclusion that it's all a matter of opinion, and it will always just be an opinion.

Like, this is just an opinion:

We must love one another or die.
--W.H. Auden

Biology demands reproduction, but I don't know if there a corollary with the heart, whether or not it is, for all, a "lonely hunter." Sometimes I think synastry puts mighty strong cravings in people or makes them have to learn karmic lessons through romance. Sometimes I think twin souls exist and have to lock into each other, like the Power Twins, or else the sky will fall. But...in most moods, this seems silly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
the idea that a person's value ceases with the loss of their body does not seem like a realistic one to me.

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I went over our conversation again because I never meant to suggest that. I did say, "But I'm not sure I can see how there is such a clear separation between body and spirit. I feel like I am my body." But I didn't mean to suggest that the soul dies with the body; I just worded it poorly. A more accurate way to phrase it would have been, for now, I feel like I am a relationship between body and spirit. That relationship will change after I die; I don't know how.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
You are perfectly right in your explanation of cutting your fingernails and I challenge you to extend that perspective to the idea of being cut off from one's whole body. Where does that "mind-body interaction" go after one has let go of the body?

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I haven't the foggiest idea! I've been looking at various accounts of NDEs and getting agitated at the discrepancies between them. I had thought that everyone goes through the same kind of thing, and took comfort in the sameness that I had supposed was there. Now that I look further into it, there is no such sameness. Comparing the testimony of eyewitnesses, there are multifarious paradises.

What bothers me most is that the paramount issue of "judgment" is experienced so many different ways. I was just looking at the NDE of Dr. Eben Alexander who was an atheist neurosurgeon before he died and went to, he says, purgatory. Others go straight to hell, just for not believing in God. Others don't believe in God, yet they get the whole "embraced by a loving, musical light" treatment. My "WHY?" about that, is one of the bigger "Why's" in my whole enormous Why inventory.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Does it follow the body into the elements of the earth? And what of the "emotion-body interaction"? Do the impressions one has left upon you continue as part of their own uniquely evolving nature?

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I have my ideas for how things should be, or how the pattern of earthly existence might ripple out into the cosmos, but I have no assurance that my ideas will play out in reality. So, "I don't know" is my answer for those three questions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
And if that is true, is that person's life not still continuing regardless of their no longer having a body?

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I think it's likely that the person's life continues after death. Energy is a constant, right? What I can't wrap my head around is an experience of the afterlife that is determined by certain decisions a person made on earth, to the exclusion of other decisions. Like, if someone is my friend now, but then we become estranged in this life, will we be friends again after death? What part of the friendship continuum is the one experienced after death, or do we just repeat all the fluctuations in closeness again, or do we get an enhanced friendship, depending on other factors?

And I don't know how "fixed, indisputable" earthly facts might morph on the Other Side, either. My sister is biologically my sister, absolutely, but when I die, how does that fact change? When does it change, when we reincarnate, or maybe it's a gradual process of de-sistering that takes place?

See...I'm confused.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
I admit, I have given my Earth Grand Trine little thought (because out the gate, Earth sign plantes don't tend to be "exciting" for me to explore).

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LOL! Funny, I think earth interactions are the cat's meow. Biased.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Being a self feels like that to me. I feel as though I awoke into this world with a completely insubstantial comprehension of self (Sun/Neptune) which resulted in a complete disassociation between my self and how to "Be" my self.

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Super interesting. 'Confirms my suspicion that you are just flat-out different. In a good way! =)

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Houses of each element begin with the objectification and solidification of the element. The next house of the same element deals with how one integrates their individualized version of the element with the external world. And the final house of the each element represents our ability to apply our experiences with that element, in a universal and collective way.

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Thank you for explaining that! I am trying to figure out how to interpret my chart with this in mind. I also have a Fire house 9, but in Aries, with Chiron hanging out there, too. So my "ability to comprehend and develop collective selfhood, or the reason and implementation of why we all go through the experience of establishing and integrating a self" seems struck through with an arrow, chronically wounded. Like I can never feel like my experiences apply to the rest of humanity. Jupiter there only magnifies the challenge, I think. (?)

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Mercury is inspired by Saturn to do its thing as a safeguard, it double checks everything and keeps me from f-ing up all the time. It also helps me become psychotically resillient when I do mess somethign up, because I am able to utilize any previously memorized resource to respond overwhelmingly well to whatever issues arise. Saturn looks at it as, "If you can't fix what is inside, at least be prepared to clean up your mess".

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Enviable, all of that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Essentially My Chiron, Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter Kite deals with a struggle to comprehend the process of being and individual, while my Sun/Neptune, Mars, ASC/Eris/SN, and DSC/Pluto/NN Kite deals with what exists when a self can not be established.

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I just LOVE how you can explain it!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Xiiro:
Sort of like the movie "Hedwig and The Angry Inch"...the movie is about discovering what we are, when we are neither male nor female.

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So do you think your gender ambivalence or ambiguity (whatever word is okay with you), do you think that is just one way that your overall sense of selflessness gets expressed? It's not that you are solid and sure of yourself on everything but gender, it's that gender is one more thing you truly feel nebulous about? I'm sorry if these questions are too personal or display an annoying lack of comprehension.

I've always had strong reactions to people who switch genders. I've thought, "Wow, it must be nice having that kind of money to blow on something totally frivolous." (Jealous & judgmental, I know. ) I've thought it could never lead to happiness, but after looking at some YouTube videos, I no longer think that. I guess it can lead to happiness.

Being somewhat of a naturalist, I just can't fathom how changing one's natural state so dramatically can lead to inner harmony. I seriously just don't get how a brain can be one gender and the body another, so the person needs to change their body to match a more fixed, real mind. I thought of exploring this with you on a thread you posted in Astrology 2.0, about dramatic progressions, but I was already talking to you here and on email and didn't want to consume any more of your time. Plus, to me, it's a big topic. But I'm open to exploring it more if you are.

That goes for any topic, though~ and I guess you figured that out by now.

Wishing you and Red a lovely Thanksgiving. Hope you'll tell us if you eat anything really yummy that's raw, like raw apple pie or raw cranberry sauce.

posted November 21, 2012 08:36 PM            

quote:

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Faith: I just did the new color chart at astro.com; they say Jupiter is my dominant planet, followed by the sun. Walter Pullen (whoever he is) has Sag as my dominant sign.

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It says royal blue Moon and deep dark blue Pluto are my strongest...Walter Pullen has Pluto and the Sun, Scorpio and...Cancer???? Must be the H4 Sun/DC + Jupiter and domicile Pluto.

quote:

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Faith: Being somewhat of a naturalist, I just can't fathom how changing one's natural state so dramatically can lead to inner harmony. I seriously just don't get how a brain can be one gender and the body another, so the person needs to change their body to match a more fixed, real mind.

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It's a pretty deep issue indeed. It's pretty confusing too! We inhabit our bodies, and if we're uncomfortable with it, we can change it. I guess you'd need to experience it...?
I dunno how well this metaphor would apply, but if you inhabit a house with a front door that is completely different from what you feel is you, then you can renovate it. Except you can also move houses, but you can't exactly just up and move to a new body.

Another case might be intersex. Say a person, who identifies as male, has male genitals but developed breasts and mixed hormones. They are unhappy with their house, just like someone who identifies as female is unhappy with their male genitals and male organs.

posted November 22, 2012 07:38 AM            

Interestingly, androgyny has become much more acceptable over the years, so maybe the intersex people feel less pressure to pick a gender. Although that desire of theirs seems to come from within...like they want to know for themselves whether they feel more male or female, and can go back and forth.

I can definitely see you as moon-Pluto dominant. Especially with your moon being in Aquarius.

#3 for me is Mars, which makes me think the ranking has something to do with tight aspects, since my sun, Jupiter and Mars are all around 15-16 degrees. My Jupiter is dominant because it's in the 9H. I guess.

posted November 22, 2012 03:35 PM            

quote:

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They shouldn't feel like they have to pick a gender.

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I think that's a kinda touchy thing to say. I mean, "what if they do want to be male, not because they have to choose, but because it's just what they want" sort of deal. Oh, and yeah, I dealt with an intersex person before and he had serious issues because of his, as he viewed it, affliction.

posted November 23, 2012 04:16 PM            

I'm sort of a Libra-Aries since my sun forms a t-square with Libra Pluto and Jupiter Aries, and is near the Pluto/Jupiter midpoint.

posted November 25, 2012 06:17 AM            

Thanks for the good wishes toward my Thanksgiving, I had a lot of fun. My Leo friend and I ditched our families and did our own thing (which seems to be on its way to an annual tradition). I didn't do a raw (or come to think of it, vegan) holiday, mostly because it is difficult to pull off when you are sharing the experience with others who are not raw or vegan. It's not a very valid excuse, but at least it's the honest one. =)

I stuck mostly to the vegetation, but there was some dairy involved. I created a cheese dip out of cream cheese, lemon juice, lemon zest, a drop of honey, some paprika, and fresh rosemary, basil, and thyme from my garden. I also made a salad and some delicious onion dip for the crap ton of fresh broccoli, cauliflower, sugar peas, carrots, and baby bell peppers I brought. The whole night was delicious and after pie, a movie, and one too many drinking games we passed out.

She has Saturn conjunct her ASC, so of course she had to work early the next morning LOL.

How was your Thanksgiving?

I was pondering today, the fact that the Sun transits between my Venus and Ceres every year on Thanksgiving. And how that feeling plays out in my perspective of both planets. Do you have any Sun transit holidays and what kind of patterns do you guys notice when those holidays come around?

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Originally posted by Faith:
Birthday party went off without a hitch, except my whole family has colds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Is it better now?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I just read that Ceres and Jupiter were brother and sister AND husband and wife and thought, "Oh please! Don't ruin astrology for me, I don't want to know!

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I find it interesting that those who told these stories assumed life (young, vibrant, and strong) would never have gone with death willingly. And it interests me that they concluded the result of this cosmic struggle ended with life making a choice to return to the underworld willingly. No warring battle between darkness and light, but the youth of life gradually descending into her lover's realm and then returning to her worried mother in the spring.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Can you show me a picture of someone who looks mutated and is attractive to you? *curious*

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LOL sure

Here is Rick Genest I think is super sexy. He was featured in a Lady Gaga video a while ago, but I had a crush on him a couple years prior.

This is a clip from a show I like called Misfits. The main guy talking is Rudy and he is ALL SORTS OF BROKEN. I am attracted to all three of his personalities, this one (his D-bag persona) is my least favorite though. I think I mentioned him in an earlier response or I intended to, but it got cut out. He has the ability to separate parts of his persona into identical copies of his self, but when he separates he loses the virtue of whichever personality traits are separate. So when he splits one of him is timid, careful, and courteous, but he is a complete wimp. The other twin is crass, rude, obtuse, and just a general grease ball. LOL

Misfits

just to name a couple.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
To me, if self-love is the absolute pinnacle of the love experience, it would seem to make "lesser" loves almost obsolete. Like, why waste your energy on romance when you could be attaining the Holy Grail?

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I believe Buddhism is all about paying attention, so one can become ever more skillful. The more skillful one becomes, the less we are likely to react to the present in an unskillful way. The Buddha had parents, a mother who died, a best friend, was married, had at least one child, and understood the love one experiences with family, friendship, partnership, and children. In the case of monastics, a person intentionally gives up their "personhood" when they ordain. By that I mean to say, regular life struggles and experiences still apply, but not in the same light. This is because the monastic has made a vow to proactively strive toward "practicing" instead of reacting the way they regularly would to external stimuli.

When you get down to the deeper aspects of what the "practice" is, I feel the Buddha is basically saying. "You are perfect where you are, good or bad, no matter what you are doing. All things are a perfect manifestation of the conditions which ushered them into existence. At some point however, we come to the realization that this world and all the things in which we involve our selves, are empty and fleeting. All of it, ESPECIALLY the things we do not want to be empty and fleeting. And because of that fact, we fill every moment with seeking to attach our self to more empty and fleeting things, hoping the pleasure they bring will save us from the suffering we endure.

The end of that suffering is not found in an object, idea, form, feeling, concept, or any other "external" thing. There is no right or wrong path to heaven, because even the very concept of heaven is an object to which we attach. The answer to the end of suffering is ceasing the panic, ceasing the search, ceasing the reaching out and grasping, ceasing our "opinions" and projections of experiences and objects being attractive or repulsive, and just sitting still. The basic "practice" is simply to stop and listen".

When you can achieve stopping and listening, all the answers unfold before you. You begin to see all the things that stand in your way (now that you are no longer distracted by external objects), as clearly as if you had been walking around with them the entire time. The more you can maintain stopping and listening, the further you shed your opinions, perceptions, and mental impositions. As you see your self honestly and see how hard you have struggled, you gain a sense of compassion for your self. Then when you look at others, you realize each of us is enduring that same struggle and you become automatically compassionate toward others. People cease to offend you, because you are no longer a participant in their issues. In fact the worse they act, the stronger it inspires your compassion. You no longer see them as trying to ruin you, you see them as trapped in a cycle of continuously ruining their self. A ruin perpetuated out of their own fear of being naturally insubstantial and temporary.

The deeper one practices the more one realizes, "I am not this body, or these thoughts, or these feelings, these beliefs, or this role, or this job. Who I am is playing all those parts. I am the still, observing, nameless presence which endures, regardless of what happens to this body, mind, or feelings. I am not the dream, but the dreamer. Not the show, but the watcher.

When one makes such an intense discovery, they often experience something referred to as "dispassion". The pleasures of life seem "flat" in the light of awareness. The people and situations in our lives no longer exist as avenues we count on to wallow with in pleasure addiction. This is why the achievement of awaking is likened to blowing out a candle. The person completely ceases to burn for the things which so passionately inspired and interested them before... Including Buddhism and the path to end suffering, which are ALSO mental formations. And in that moment all suffering ceases, because suffering is seen as something for which we also burn. This is not to say that one ceases to become sick, age, or die, but the awakened person no longer experiencing suffering in those things. Those are now instead seen as inevitable conditions through which our character must pass, but which we are free to experience without fear or suffering. In the Buddha's time and culture, reincarnation was part of nature. It was said that those who were not awake, jumped from body to body, based on their experiences. An awakened person however becomes skilled enough to leave their role behind and step out of the cycle of birth and death.

That being said, monastics "perspective on living" have to kind of be considered in a different light than others, because their goal is to completely shut all this down. This is why the Buddha suggested monastics not pursue romantic love, because being involved so strongly with an external person makes letting go of our attachments and aversions that much harder. How can you practice easily without attachment when you want to be with your loved one? How can you practice easily without aversion, when you hope your loved one doesn't get sick or die. It makes things difficult.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Sometimes I think synastry puts mighty strong cravings in people or makes them have to learn karmic lessons through romance. Sometimes I think twin souls exist and have to lock into each other, like the Power Twins, or else the sky will fall.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
"I don't know" is my answer for those three questions.

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I speak about things as if they are law, not because I expect others to agree, but because they correlate with my own experiences. If it is such an important topic for you to answer, your best bet may be to form an opinion based on your own experiences. Having NN in Scorpio, I can understand why the interest exists. I have to point out however, that it is a losing battle. You will never know for sure, the conditions of what happens when you die until you do.

From my perspective, I see the way we are effected by a person as the main force which bears proof that the person is a living, existing, and separate entity. When a person dies I don't see them as going away, because their effect on my life remains. That is what works for me. =)

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
What I can't wrap my head around is an experience of the afterlife that is determined by certain decisions a person made on earth, to the exclusion of other decisions. Like, if someone is my friend now, but then we become estranged in this life, will we be friends again after death? What part of the friendship continuum is the one experienced after death, or do we just repeat all the fluctuations in closeness again, or do we get an enhanced friendship, depending on other factors?

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There are all sorts of scenarios I think the key to mediumship is knowing how to treat spirits with the same respect you treat the living and not superimpose one's mental picture over what is actually going on. Lots of times people think a spirit must be mad, or lost, or even forgiving, when that is not the case. I'm not sure how it works, I just know it does. I found when I worried too much about the "why" I missed the whole point of the "because".

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
My sister is biologically my sister, absolutely, but when I die, how does that fact change? When does it change, when we reincarnate, or maybe it's a gradual process of de-sistering that takes place?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Like I can never feel like my experiences apply to the rest of humanity.

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So for example, Do you feel your experiences even apply to your self? Do you feel there is a difference between what you "should" be learning and what you actually take away from your experiences? How about the actual process of learning, do you feel you can gain knowledge, but when it comes to applying the knowledge to "self" the connections become difficult to make? Do you feel as if your experiences happened to someone else? That who you became is unrelated to what you went through? This house is also the house of religious dogma, so you may find that philosophically and theologically prescribed practices are hard to follow if you don't first create a persona to participate. Do you find you are a different person spiritually than you are alone?

How would you expand that sentence?

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
It's not that you are solid and sure of yourself on everything but gender, it's that gender is one more thing you truly feel nebulous about?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I just can't fathom how changing one's natural state so dramatically can lead to inner harmony. I seriously just don't get how a brain can be one gender and the body another, so the person needs to change their body to match a more fixed, real mind.

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I think people are unaware that even today, some doctors will perform cliterectomys without informing the parents, if a baby is born with a large clitoris. The excuse they give, is it normalizes the child and saves them from experiencing the trauma of having "different" genitals than the rest of us. Back in the day, they even had a ruler which showed the appropriate length to cut (I'm not sure if that practice is still happening today though). Having a large clitoris is a sign of higher levels of testosterone and those children are raised to act and dress like women, though they feel hormonally masculine or androgynous. There are cases where boys are born with a thin membrane over an almost fully developed set of female genitals. There is also the case of AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), where a person is genetically one gender, but because their body rejects the hormones of that gender, they develop as the opposite gender. So to begin, there are several physical things which could be involved in a person wanting to select a specific gender.

I look at it like this. Imagine you were born with a physically debilitating disease and later a cure was found. Would you avoid the cure because it changes your physical body into something that resembles the active mind trapped in a debilitated body? Much confusion about transgendered people comes from the assumption that these people are MEN or WOMEN who want to be the other gender. That is not the case with most trans people I have met. The case is often the person has a body that is publically identified MALE or FEMALE, but does not reflect how their mind identifies its self. When they look inward, they experience a different gender identity than what their body reflects. When they experience hormonal and social gender habits, it results in confusion, frustration, and depression.

We live in a world which imposes severe social structures on people based on their physical gender. People may not realize how difficult it could be for a person to feel one way inside, but be expected to act another way on the outside. In most cases, a person can't just say, "No I may look like a guy on the outside, but I am actually female" and be taken seriously. So in stead, they experience life as one long episode of always being dishonest about who they are and treated contrary to their honest comforts.

My friend from the monastery endured a lot of strife when he began transitioning, because he lived a very active life as a lesbian and a feminist before deciding to start hormone therapy. Many of his friends resented him for giving up on being female and grabbing a chunk of male privilege for himself. Sadly, people don't commonly irreparably "screw up" their body just so they can enjoy the "easy life" as a straight, white, male. When people see it from that perspective I admit, it makes no sense to me. Just like choosing to come out as gay, you make the decision to automatically choose a hard life. Granted, things have changed a lot for gay people, but trans people are not skipping through cotton candy fields. Even after gender reassignment, trans people take on a whole new list of obstacles involving how to find love, health risks from taking hormones, being treated like a "fake boy/girl", feeling adequate as if they need to prove they had a valid reason to change their physical gender, being treated like a stranger by their own families, hearing from their loved ones how their old body is missed, being considered dead or gone by loved ones just because their body is different, etc... Many people don't consider that a trans person may suffer through the development of their gender, finds relief in gender reassignment, and then is made to feel guilty because those close to them struggle with loving them beyond their body's appearance. In many situations a transitioning person is blamed for their friend's and family's lack of understanding.

I think changing one's appearance drastically happens every day in our world. Now days old women are getting surgery to look 20 years younger, people with small breasts or pecs can get implants, people with big hips, big noses, big breasts, big ears, cleft palates, Asian looking eyes, freckles, unsatisfying genital appearance or function, flat butts, small calves, etc... can all pay to make their bodies more aesthetically pleasing to themselves. When a woman goes through menopause, the doctor gives her hormones, partially because he is preventing her from becoming more physically masculine.

I think Red's points are very well stated too. It's understandable for people to have difficulty getting their head around this kind of stuff. The most important thing is to respect that individual people are intelligent enough to know what is good or right for their individual situation, even if those things don't make sense to us. As long as it doesn't hurt others, have at it, I say.

posted November 25, 2012 07:27 PM            

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xiiro~when you write a response damn boy you really write one.

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Lmfao!!

Xiiro; have you ever watched a show called American Horror Story? I got to episode nine and I still have yet to continue it,
But I like, love Tate omg...he has so many issues, I just wanna squeeze him.

posted November 25, 2012 08:01 PM            

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
[B] Lmfao!!B]

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did you like that RedScorp

what happened to all the responses i could have sworn faith and xiiro both posted...must be that damn Mercury acting up again bad boy he needs a spanking.

posted November 25, 2012 08:12 PM            

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
^Yah that happens, responses vanish every so often...

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posted November 26, 2012 09:57 AM            

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Originally posted by DepTaurus:
xiiro~when you write a response damn boy you really write one.

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Cuz he's awesome.

DepTaurus, are you sticking around?

Got any Leo in your chart?

posted November 26, 2012 10:40 AM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
Cuz he's awesome.

DepTaurus, are you sticking around?

Got any Leo in your chart?

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Taurus Sun Square Aquarius Moon Opposite Leo Asc Square Taurus Sun