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Author Topic:   Sl*t Shaming
Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
**** shaming (also hyphenated, as **** -shaming) is a concept in philosophy on sexuality. It is a neologism used to describe the act of making any person feel guilty or inferior for certain sexual behaviors or desires that deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or religious law. Some examples of behaviors over which women are said to be "**** -shamed" include: violating accepted dress codes by dressing in sexually provocative ways, requesting access to birth control,[1][2][3] having premarital or casual sex, or being raped or sexually assaulted.[4]

Thoughts? Opinions?

I didn't want to hijack Chiemi's thread.

Nice symbolic image for this thread - for the way things should be, as opposed to the way they are


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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And I have another question... Have you ever or would you - attend sl*t walk in your city (if you live in one of the major cities where it is held annually):

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12muddy
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posted December 31, 2013 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sl*t-shaming. I think so much on this topic and have too much to say, to the point that my brain is totally overloaded right now.

Sl*t walk. Heh. Did attend it some time ago in Toronto.

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
**** shaming is mostly promoted and enforced by women, that is why it's odd to me that men get most of the blame. Men generally like sex and like women who are comfortable with sexuality. Solution? Quit listening to your insecure friends and do what you want.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG - please don't make this about men.

It exists *socially*. Sl*t shaming is a social phenomenon.
And it should not exist.

I am not blaming men here.

quote:
Men generally like sex and like women who are comfortable with sexuality.

Not all men.
Actually most priests and religious leaders are men.

But this is not about men vs women... because it's a social problem and everyone is guilty as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad something is being done about it.
I'm very happy about sl*twalk. I hope it carries on for many years to come.

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Kerosene
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posted December 31, 2013 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerosene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BOYZ VS GURLS PART 2
-______-
But seriously everyone in the west knows ****shaming is common amongst women.... No brainer..

besides priests I've never heard a guy complain about promiscuity.

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Kerosene
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posted December 31, 2013 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerosene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDTViM1MXYw

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/are-you-a-**** -shamer-the_b_1093045.html

**** -Shaming Needs To End Now

"Did you see what that girl was wearing?"
"Someone should tell her she looks like a streetwalker."
"She's going to get a reputation if she's not careful."
"What a **** ."

Sound familiar? Everyone does it.

It's hard to describe the breadth of what the word "**** " means to people, or to agree on the use, "reclaimation," or abuse of the word.

So, what's **** -shaming?

After reviewing a wide array of gender studies and feminist sites and sources, I came up with the following definition: It's embarrassing, insulting or otherwise denigrating a girl or woman for her real or extrapolated sexual behavior, including for dressing in a sexual way, having sexual feelings and/or exploring and exhibiting them.

I know, pretty broad. But perhaps the most useful and meaningful qualifier is the addition of "in a way that you wouldn't do if she was a boy or man." It's the flip side of stud-baiting, which I would describe as pressure on boys to be "play the field."

As a mother (and former girl), I've seen a lot of girls shaming other girls in this way. They get a whole lot of input that teaches them, from a very early age, that it's OK to do this.

When I see **** -shaming firsthand it often comes from parents policing their own children and their children's friends.

PARENTS!!! ^^^ *Great point*

Continued:

Every parent of teens occasionally sees their kids or their kids' friends behave in ways that gives them pause or cause concern, but **** -shaming goes beyond that and into the realm of destructive gossip and innuendo and often has real consequences for the girls involved. It's often a girl's first real exposure to gender based double standards.

It's illogical and confusing to a girl who's been told she can do anything a boy can do for her whole life until that point.

It's particularly egregious in this country, where we teach our kids to assume equality and then effectively turn on them as they become teenagers by enforcing repressive, damaging, antiquated and gendered rules like these. Rules that hurt both girls and boys.

At its core, **** -shaming is an overt and socially acceptable illustration of the misogynistic impulse to control and police female sexuality as it develops in teenage girls.

Jessica Valenti's He's a Stud, She's a **** .
http://www.amazon.com/Other-Double-Standards-Every-Should/dp/1580052452/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1321294653&sr=8-3 will clear up any ambiguity you may have in believing that.

**** -shaming enforces a sexual double standard in which boys can engage in sexual behavior freely, whereas girls can only do it when it's part of transaction that includes "true" love or marriage.[b]

I would double-blond that ^ but I can't so... damn lol


You don't even have to use the word "**** " to be a **** shamer. [b]Next time you talk about, with a wink and a nod, what a "man about town" or "player" a boy is, think about saying the same thing about his sister.

I am not saying girls should be "like boys" (whatever that means) or that I think rampant promiscuity is a good thing for teenage boys or girls. I'm saying there should be the same standard of behavior for both.

The rule in our house is that we don't ever call a girl or woman a **** , because it's a code word for a double standard that punishes girls and rewards boys for the exact same behavior. I don't fall into the "reclaiming the word" camp, even though I heartily appreciate the use of the word for **** Walks.

Teenage girls will experiment with make up and clothes and maybe alcohol and drugs. Like boys, they will take risks and make mistakes as they figure out their place in the world. But they will be held to a much higher public standard. Everything from the amount of eyeliner they wear to the height of their heels is scrutinized for any signs of incipient sluttiness, which could mean they're burdened by a "bad reputation" for making immature, impulsive decisions and trying to sort things out. Kids have to learn limits and rules, and they have to understand the consequences of their actions, but not this way.

And, the consequences of **** shaming for girls who are victims of it, sadly, continue to be significant.

On an individual level, girls who are the victims of this type of bullying can suffer the effects for years. These range from how she perceives herself to how others treat her. Girls who are **** shamed are often harassed and shunned. It's why Phoebe Prince and countless other girls have killed themselves after intense **** shaming bullying.

At a societal level, women continue to be told not to "dress like ***** " or they're inviting rape, which perpetuates the very dangerous myth that the way a woman dresses encourages rape and continues the habit of blaming the victim instead of the perpetrator.

In some countries the same underlying principle of shame and honor manifests itself in radical and violent control of girls, resulting in stoning and death ... a solution that was suggested in a letter to the Editor in a US newspaper this summer.

In any instance, **** -shaming is a subtle and powerful social tool. The way you keep a group (ie. women) oppressed is to divide and conquer. In a world that consistently portrays women as isolated and competitive this is easy to do. Catty, backstabbing women are a pervasive trope in our media and entertainment portrayals of women. They are the highlight of every base reality TV show and the majority of movies that feature more than one woman. It's also a persistent Biblical theme. Our culture revels at making women the tools of their own undoing.

In this manner, **** -shaming is a way that women gain power by participating in a system that denigrates them. It enables girls and women who engage in it aggressively to be and feel more "virtuous" by comparison. It gains them the approval of the reigning powers that be ... insert your hierarchical patriarchal structure here. And, I know. I'm dating myself. Race, class and sexuality all very legitimately compound these issues and are valid concerns. But, I'm sticking to patriarchy because it's simple and evokes a really clear picture of the guys at the top of the heap who get to make and enforce decisions about females, their bodies and their sexuality. Don't you think it strange how every picture of the people making decisions ... oops thought for a split second that this was an article about Congress and reproductive rights? Sorry, that's totally unrelated.

We live in a world that sends massively conflicting messages to boys and girls. It's a place where women are celebrated for dressing like "***** " to sell, well, everything but they are "shamed" for doing it to protest rape and sexual assault. That's confusing and wrong.

So, if you suspect that you are, indeed, a **** shamer, do what Tina Fey says in "Mean Girls" and stop.

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Padre35
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posted December 31, 2013 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Somewhat serious question Odette:

How I can I take "gender studies" seriously when out in the world things are very different?

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I've never heard a guy complain about promiscuity.

I guess you've never met a misogynistic guy..

"The misogynistic impulse to control and police female sexuality"

An extreme example of controlling and policing female sexuality:
http://www.icl-fi.org/english/womendrev/oldsite/FGM.HTM

"The Crime of Female Genital Mutilation":

"One early morning in an African village not far from Nairobi, Kenya, young girls are roused from sleep and taken to a nearby river. The waters are cold, helping to arrest the bleeding from a first menstrual cycle, making their genitalia stand out and slightly numb. Soon an elder village midwife takes the children one by one and with a rusty razor, scissors or shard of glass cuts out the clitoris, slices off the labia and applies ashes, herbs or cow dung to staunch the flow of blood. As the girl writhes in pain, other women hold her arms down, her legs apart, her mouth shut tight so that she cannot run away or alarm the other unsuspecting children waiting in their cool bath."

As far as I'm concerned everything else is in that ball-park... but obviously the degree of aggression is considerably lower in the Western world., where our legal system does not allow for this.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
How I can I take "gender studies" seriously when out in the world things are very different?

What world? The world of conservative religious people?

That's not my world.

Also a serious question:

Do you think things are also "very different" in Denmark for example.. or other Scandinavian countries?
Are you referring to particular countries/places in the world?

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:

Somewhat serious question Odette:

How I can I take "gender studies" seriously when out in the world things are very different?


Exactly. Essentially when you are dealing with feminism you are dealing with a thing called apex fallacy. Feminists completely ignore the average men who struggle to make ends meat (I.E most of us) and focus on the rich men and big dogs in charge and compare their situations to them and say "waaaah male privilege waaah misogyny". This is because they want to be the top dogs and hook up with all these rich guys or get rich themselves , so they try to punish men as a collective when they can't get their way . I have had multiple people on this very forum call me a "privileged male" when I'm probably one of the poorest people here. At this very moment I'm very ill with pneumonia and don't even have the money to see a doctor . I'm completely miserable and have been for days and honestly I am kind of wishing for death. So please excuse me if i don't take **** shaming seriously. Yep, I'm just a privileged man.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^^ That was not what Padre meant...

In Padre's world.. women "make love" and men "f*ck"

And in Padre's world... this is something similar to a biological fact of nature - as opposed to a bs social construct.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG - I don't normally comment on the things you say about men and women and feminists and so on.. but I will now... because this is something I thought a while ago - and didn't end up telling you at the time.

Generally a lot of the things you have said are accurate for a very particular segment of society.. for women who would have the social standing and financial stability and independence of the characters in Sex and the City - for example (living in NYC).
If you complained about those characters ^ and then said.. well LOOK! These 4 characters have a lot of sexual freedom and no one is sl*t shaming them ... and actually they are kind of superficial - and just look at the string of heartbroken men Samantha has left behind.. then you would be correct.

However the entire world out there is not made up of *those* women or women "like"... those women.

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Kerosene
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posted December 31, 2013 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerosene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dp.

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Kerosene
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posted December 31, 2013 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerosene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I live in Los Angeles not Nairobi :P
I can't even deal with africa and middle east they are straight up murdering people up in there.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't see the part about pneumonia.. I hope you get well soon <3 <3 <3 *hugs*

I nevr said you were a privileged man.

Sl*t shaming is alive and thriving.. I was just reminded of it on Chiemi's thread.. so it's definitely amongst us.
And I was not blaming men for this in particular.
I bolded parts in that article that explain how women go along with this bs as well and often sl*t shame.

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12muddy
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posted December 31, 2013 09:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry if this seems to be off-track.

From what I've observed, there is a bit of a thing called "prude shamming". I feel that it's the exact opposite of **** -shamming, like two sides of the same coin. Both are shaming the person for making their sexual choices.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Well I live in Los Angeles not Nairobi :P

LoL

What I meant was that from my perspective... it is still in the same ballpark: It's still trying to assert control over female sexuality.

It's just that reading that article, about vaginal mutilation.. it all sounds frightening and disturbing to just about anyone in the Western world (male or female).

However the same men and women who find that disturbing might casually engage in sl*t shaming behaviour on a daily basis..
I find it hypocritical.

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 12muddy:
Sorry if this seems to be off-track.

From what I've observed, there is a bit of a thing called "prude shamming". I feel that it's the exact opposite of **** -shamming, like two sides of the same coin. Both are shaming the person for making their sexual choices.



True. This goes both ways though and it's all a matter of individual opinion. I was called gay because I rejected a girls sexual advances once. It's just that people get mad when they don't get their way.

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odette:
I didn't see the part about pneumonia.. I hope you get well soon <3 <3 <3 *hugs*

I nevr said you were a privileged man.

Sl*t shaming is alive and thriving.. I was just reminded of it on Chiemi's thread.. so it's definitely amongst us.
And I was not blaming men for this in particular.
I bolded parts in that article that explain how women go along with this bs as well and often sl*t shame.



Thanks. I need some hardcore drugs and steroids to get rid of this junk. I'm exhausted.. And my lungs sound like an 80 year old man who has smoked his entire life. Lol

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
12muddy - Well ... there are prudes and there are prudes.

If a person makes a choice to never have sex in their entire life because they believe this is best for them on a spiritual level.. then some might call them prudes - but that is their choice and they are entitled to it.
Of course they shouldn't be shamed.

However, if a person makes the choice to be a "prude" in order to abide by a social or religious standard that shames "sl*ts"-- because the prudish person is afraid of social repercussions or because the prudish person is simply brainwashed... then (while they should not be shamed) - they can definitely be attacked on an ideological level.

I mean the whole point of attacking sl*t shaming - is to attack those who believe in it, go along with it and promulgate it.
So if someone is being a prude for the purpose of furthering sl*t shaming... then I have no problem attacking them (on an intellectual level). I wouldn't "shame" them, but I can argue my point.

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Odette
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posted December 31, 2013 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG - I'm sorry I dragged you into this convo. I didn't realise how sick you were.
You should take care of yourself. Don't even worry about this thread. If anything I said here is annoying or unnerving - please just avoid the thread.
When you are feeling sick and down physically - it's not a good idea to get irritated and angry.. because it can make things worse.

I had a bad cough ages ago, last year and I know every time something angered me - I couldn't stop coughing. It was seriously annoying.

Please take care. I'm really worried about you now

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odette:
AG - I'm sorry I dragged you into this convo. I didn't realise how sick you were.
You should take care of yourself. Don't even worry about this thread. If anything I said here is annoying or unnerving - please just avoid the thread.
When you are feeling sick and down physically - it's not a good idea to get irritated and angry.. because it can make things worse.

I had a bad cough ages ago, last year and I know every time something angered me - I couldn't stop coughing. It was seriously annoying.

Please take care. I'm really worried about you now



Aww I'm not annoyed at you. <3

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aquaguy91
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posted December 31, 2013 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o486/dusty1991/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zp s3c524ea7.jpg[/IMG]

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