posted May 09, 2006 12:40 PM              

I am aware of all the sites and dating tips telling you to stop being a wuss and all that rubbish. Now these games WILL get you sex, because you are lying and manipulating into presenting a you that isn't true. There is absolutely no concept of respect in these ideas, despite the claimes of this being otherwise. I have to say that these guys ARE proven right by the way women think today, but thats another problem. I would like to see these guys after a break-up wth someone they really care about. Would be very interesting....

How do any couples manage to stay together through the tough times if that is the case?

I have noticed that compassion and LOYALTY seem to be almost dimissed with little thought. We all have periods in our lives where we can vary from down to pathetic. Are we to assume that we will be rejected and abandoned from falling off such a precariously balanced perch because the power-play dynamics have changed?

Maybe this does apply to the majority of the unevolved. But then such cheap meaningless affection based purely on how much pride you can have in your partner on purely a superficial level is ultimately worthless. This also would seem to go against the evolutional path we must have trodden up until now to even have the societies we live in with their underpinning values (however strained!).

Dating and the mindsets of young men and women today seem so narcissistic and supeficial in the main, but I would like to hope there enough others out there with the depth of character and moral backbone to take better care of each other and work on a much stronger bond.

"Nice guy" is a term that is over-used and is a great bandwagon for weak and spineless men to bemoan the fact that they don't get much. I've been that guy on occasion in the past and feel sick thinking about it. However, there are times where respect and good manners are overlooked and women have associated this with the same, and gone off with a prick who acts indifferent because he only cares about how you look naked, although he'll just get another one if you are frigid or not up to scratch or he's bored. He will be loved for it, because many women (and men!) seem to be more comfortable playing these childish games of uncertainty rather than attempt to build something beautiful and real. Quite frankly, they haven't got what it takes to do this or even recognise it when they think they should want it. Thus the idea is ridiculed, rather like the Jocks bully the kid who will grow up to be a genius, while their guts get bigger, their minds duller and their kids follow in their footsteps.

People only want what is easy today. Pure and simple. If it isn't working all the time anytime for them it is discarded without thought. And wouldn't you say that there are many more break-ups, divorces and dysfunctional families than ever before?

Seems like its not progressive thinking to me. Liberation seems to have really skewed many women's values, which always happens when any group suddenly gets a taste of power they have never had before.

Guess people will all take a long hard look at relationships and stronger bonds of love once this initial "buzz" of new relating dies down. Give or take 20 years.

Swerve

posted May 09, 2006 03:47 PM            

You're in a good long term relationship and you go to Las Vegas on vacation with your significant other, while she heads for shopping you high-tail it to the tables but on the way you meet a totally hot woman who clearly wants you. Are you going to pass up a little harmless human contact? You've got time and nobody will ever know.

Be Honest

posted May 09, 2006 03:53 PM              

However, if the situation were reversed I would absolutely crap myself and expect the worst...probably sense it being triple water anyway, like I can (and it can be painful to be this intuitive).

I always wonder if being this loyal is a disadvantage in life.

One other point - this perception of power I agree with. Unfortunately, most people have no idea what real power is and require the baser forms of expression of it to be able to recognise it. This in itself explains the attraction to the obvious twats. In fact, it might be a good screen to avoid women of questionable character and integrity. Or just plain wisdom.

Last point - those nice men that are only playing nice usually turn out to be assholes at a later date. And I know the ladies know what I'm talking about here.

I guess the problem for women is creating an ass-hole proof defence-system that keeps out the rotters while being intelligent enough to let the gooduns through.

I need to develop one for the fairer sex myself.

Swerve

posted May 09, 2006 04:27 PM            

"Its true you do have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince but you don't have to sleep with them."

Amen to that!!!!

Happy Dragon,

Sometimes we do look at the good ones. The ones without the Uranus aspects. Sometimes we realize that they are the ones that will be there when the chips are down, help us around the house, enjoy our company etc... But it's a give and take. The one I am with now, Mr. Leo - only has Uranus sextile Sun (but, he does have that Venus conjunct Pluto aspect as well as Pluto square his Saturn and trines his Sun).

I have strong such Pluto aspects that I am not sure that I have ever been with someone that doesn't have them. My own Pluto squares my Sun / Venus.

Do you think that having my own Pluto aspects presdisposes me relationships with those that also have pluto aspects?

posted May 09, 2006 06:04 PM              

It’s too easy to say “men were programmed this way, blah blah blah” it’s too simplistic, too vague.
I learnt at a young age grown ups don’t know sh*t…and it’s important to know the facts. Hence my decision to do science at uni. My first class at AS level when I was sixteen was Chemistry, and from day one he didn’t only explain how something happened, but why. This brought me a LOT of security. I felt very lost as a child because of my lack of knowledge. And let me tell you, knowledge is power. Which is why I refuse to believe anything unless someone backs it up. And often a lot of people can not back up their theories of men, seriously, not even science can back it up. In the end they come across as someone who is insecure, has been hurt, and has decided to put their blame on someone else. And that’s not cool, but hey I’m judgemental.

posted May 09, 2006 07:29 PM            

I was simply highlighting the power-struggle existing between the opposites sexes. And stating that deception comes in many forms, whether it be 'devious-game-playing' for the sake of control and manipulation.... or... 'being too nice' for the sake of presenting yourself in a much better light than you actually are. Each condition arouses the weaknesses in the other. I was simply observing romantic inter-play realistically, whilst you were idealistically speaking of the qualities that should exist in a relationship, ie compassion and loyalty.

I agree wholeheartedly with nearly everything you said. In an ideal world, people would show respect to one another. A relationship would breathe dedication, devotion and unconditional passion. People would have little need for games, power-struggles or tactical approaches. Masks would not be worn to hide who we truly were, because fear would not dictate our choices and rejection would not mist our thoughts. And we have little room to wear a mask anyway seeing as our faces would front a smile so big, the corners of our mouths would touch our ears. And indeed, when times got rough, adversity struck, partners would show a resilient committment to come out of it stronger, closer, more together than ever before. Because in weakness, we find our strengths. I try to live my life by such ideals too when I relate to an intimate one, and take them further than just a simple ideal. A man may speak a thousand words, and have a plethora of ideas, yet its in his actions that his true spirit shines.

The only thing I didnt agree with in your post was your disdain for the current situation in the relationship world today. You spoke about it with a sharp bitterness, I could almost taste it. What is the point of the 'evolution' and 'progressive thinking' if we are to turn our backs on the things we do not like? Okay, so the dating world isnt idealistic. The attitudes of many men and women in the world are narcissistic and shallow. But that is no reason to separate ourselves from everyone who is like this, and instead defiantly adhere to higher principles. This is just another from of indignance.

I have many friends who used to be 'players'. And as years passed, and they got older, their values slowly shifted to more spiritual ones. And why did that happen? Purely because they dated people who were very different from them. They dated girls who had excellent views on life, girls who were caring and devoted, kind and true. And slowly but surely, they were touched. Nothing is ever a lost cause. To show compassion to others is to look beyond their faults, and always keep hope by your side. I would say I am an idealist too, but I always strive to make my ideals a reality, otherwise what am I living for.
People do take the 'easy approach' a lot in todays age, and its also easy to sit there and complain about a situation if you are not willing to try to change it yourself. Small changes, big rewards. Its like a ripple effect, every person you touch with even the smallest part of your own integrity, will carry that part of you with them. And in time, they will connect with someone else and touch them with the gift you gave them.

Lalalinda,

If I was in a long-term relationship and a really hot woman wanted me, then she would be wasting her time! I do not flirt at all if I am in love with someone. And its happened before, where a girl will start flirting with me when I am in a relationship, and I tell her directly (and as gently as possible) that I do not wish her to continue doing that. If I do not have a mental, emotional and spiritual bond with a girl, sex doesnt even enter my mind.

posted May 09, 2006 11:31 PM            

My example is to show you just how easy it is to tempt men in general. I do believe I said we (as women) turn those kind of offers down a dime a dozen. (because they're superficial)

And looks have nothing to do with it, any beautiful woman who has caught her man being indiscreet can tell you that. Look at poor Jennifer Aniston (although I don't feel that sorry for her because thats how she got him (Brad Pitt) in the first place) It happens.

posted May 10, 2006 01:38 AM              

1)I dont really agree woth rule one....in fact I've noticed the guys who are really nice get treated like **** by girls(okay...the guys were doormats but still....)

2&3)I agree...that does drive me wild!But then If you act too bitchy....I'm gone...

4)I like my lightning rod A LOT.

5)err.....Dont agree...again too long and I'll be gone...

6)Hey...it's all about spreading your genes

posted May 10, 2006 02:40 AM            

quote:

---

You're in a good long term relationship and you go to Las Vegas on vacation with your significant other, while she heads for shopping you high-tail it to the tables but on the way you meet a totally hot woman who clearly wants you. Are you going to pass up a little harmless human contact? You've got time and nobody will ever know.

Be Honest

---

"And it demolishes the notion that singles are swinging: Even among young singles [men] (under 30), nearly half aren't dating at all, and among those who are dating, eight in 10 are dating one person exclusively. Monogamy, again, rules the roost." http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News/story?id=156921&page=1

I remember reading that men actually prefer committed relationships, because we really hate the process of looking for someone. I can't seem to find that, though.

posted May 10, 2006 05:55 AM              

However, I often get accused of being bitter, and there is a sense of this, but it's shrouded in hope. I just see the way trends develop and I foresee people drifting further and further apart.

I wouldn't say I was bitter, just sensitive to the underlying currents of social dynamics and the changes that are taking place. Also, the lack of progress. many so-called idealists do not come close to reality and make the connection that might actually signal change. The ideal and the realistic are not so far apart, THAT is the source of my frustration. Not that they are unattainable. Its the hypocrisy and weak-mindedness that gall me, much like those that pray to a God and spout religious doctrine then treat other people like crap the minute they walk out the door.

High expectations are only unrealistic if they are unachievable. The bitterness you sense comes from the fact that its a tightrope of knowing what is possible and realising you have to settle for much less. I like the fact I don't accept anything else, I believe it to be a strength and not a weakness. Though some would percieve it as the latter obviously, which is not to say you are my friend, just others.

I think as I grow older I will be better able to articulate this, i don't feel I have the nessecary wisdom to put worthy strength behind this point at present. The response I usually get is "accept people for who they are", "trust in a higher love", etc, but for me that doesn't cut it. Not even close.

If it can be real, why isn't it? I will never stop asking that question.

posted May 10, 2006 05:58 AM              

And you say 'no one will know'.... not true. I would know, and my girl sits in my heart with me, I would not only dishonor her, I would dishonor myself.'

ur girlfriend is very lucky to have u, i wish more men had brains that think like that (no offense to others)
i never like the men vs women debates, nobody ever wins but parcticaly speaking most of the men we see around us tend to experiement alot before finally settling down...too much temptation to resist i guess!
i know of women too who have played their games very well!
when i broke my engagement with this guy, i knew he cheated on me and i hated him for that but i equally blame the other girl involved cause she was close to me as well, they were just flirting around and got nothing out of it!
some men find if impossible to say no to another women and i was in love with such a loser, back then i used to think the same abt all men.
but i guess every person has a devil in him/her its just how much control you have to fight off such temptations.

posted May 10, 2006 06:10 AM              

I guess I see it as ego-based and like I said it's very hard for me to understand how something as simple as love, something that should be honest and genuine can get distorted to this extent in power plays due to all sorts of different egotistical issues people have that they can't seem to get over. Why can’t people just forget about their egos and act as they would like others to act towards them in the same situation? Why is it that the ego always has to come first? I honestly think if I hadn’t met my bf who is quite weird and understands me, so we’ve never played these games.. but I honestly think if I hadn’t, I’d end up moving somewhere in rural Africa, just to get away from this social crap. That’s how much it bothers me. It’s like “she likes him but he doesn’t but he likes someone else who doesn’t like him, but hey, he’s a bad boy so he deserves it.. but then again maybe she’s a bad girl, on the other hand X Y Z are way *too* nice and we all know nice guys finish last.. bla bla bla” Who cares! Get over it! Lol *sorry* bit harsh.. but honestly, I wish people just got over it. Are we lions or gorillas or dogs or cats or are we people? I mean sure, there is a natural instinctual element in man/woman or man/man, woman/woman interactions which is sexual.. but does this sexual/physical *thing* really have to rule out everything else to the extent where we forget who we are outside our gender and our body?

I wish people just treated each other with respect and with honesty and genuineness.. All these power plays really just complicate something that should be A LOT simpler and there’s absolutely no need for them. But I’m out of this loop.. Always have been.. and thank God for that. I think I’d die in exhaustion if I had to put up so many fronts and suss out all the different psychological ways in which I could influence a guy or in which he could influence me..or if I had to make sure my *ego* comes out on top.. and all of the other social things girls and boys seem to be doing these days. I feel it everywhere.. it’s in the air. Most convos I hear between men and women are full of untruths and show offs going both ways.. and this is even between people who most probably have no lasting interest in each other. Makes me wonder, Jesus how do some people do it? I’d get so frustrated and exhausted doing this, I’d literally collapse or fall asleep.. not mentioning I’d just feel like I’m completely turning my back on the things that *really* matter.. that I see as important.. and that is the spirit.. and *who* people are deep down inside. It’s almost as though I’d be lowering myself to a level of interaction which is purely physical.. with 50% of the population (male) if I was to do this love/hate..push me/pull you, stuff, not mentioning it is disrespectful to both parties. I need to feel some depth in my connections with both men and women.. and a superficial, false connection, on a purely physical level, holds no meaning to me.

posted May 10, 2006 06:11 AM              

About the hot Vegas chicks, I would definitely flirt but no touch, no kiss, zilch. Just talk.

I would even flirt if my wife were nearby and would later show off to my wife "Look at the hot girls who get attracted to your man, you lucky girl! And you have me all for yourself. How about some appreciation?"

posted May 10, 2006 06:22 AM            

When I finished that first post, I had a sense it wasnt very clear. Recently my brain has been on autopilot and thoughts seem harder to clarify.

double trouble gemini, No gf anymore, but we are still great friends. I think we were just moving in different directions in life. Who knows, maybe the wind will blow that way again some day. Probably one of the reasons Ive been braindead lately lol

posted May 10, 2006 06:39 AM              

I'm useless at 'game playing' as I just loose interest if I have to jump through hoops and keep one step ahead all the time... I'd rather be an equal partnership and be honest about how I feel and what I think/want/need, and I don't want to have to pretend to be out when they phone just to keep them interested, or keep saying 'no' when I want to say 'YES!' I rather feel that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Of course relationships break up from time to time, and you move on and begin the next chapter, but I'm thankful for the knowledge that the relationships I've had have lasted as long as they did through genuine love, attraction and honesty and not because I managed to dangle them deftly on some invisible string.

In my humble opinion, any man or woman who mistreats someone that treats them well isn't worth wasting your time on.

quote:

---

We want to believe all the great lines we hear and (at the time) they seem so sincere but its the chase that they're interested in and words are just tools to win with. You are not the only woman to hear these sweet nothings. If it works they'll use it again and again.

---

Well I find all those 'How to find a man to marry' courses and books just as dishonest and insincere as the above 'chat up lines.' After all it's simply using the same approach on men until one of them falls for the 'chase' tricks. Those courses teach just these kind of 'honey pot/drop your hankie/don't call him back' tactics and in my opinion it's selling a lie.

If you have to 'trick' someone or employ some kind of elaborate plan in order to 'hook' them without their knowledge, then I feel that's a rather underhand and ultimately empty way to begin a relationship. Fine it might work at the start, but then you'll have to spend the rest of your days together consumed with the task of 'not giving up the honey pot' and always looking over your shoulder to make sure he's following; when instead you could be relaxing and enjoying the honesty between you... not to mention BOTH enjoying that honey pot anytime you want! I personally don't see sex as a commodity to be traded or witheld when you feel someone hasn't jumped through quite enough hoops - I see it as a gift given between people who love each other; the ultimate love token if you like. Of course it doesn't mean sleeping with someone if you don't want to, but equally, I don't feel it means abstaining from having sex with someone when you do both want to just in order to 'keep them interested.' That to me is using sex to control someone.

posted May 10, 2006 06:45 AM              

And looks have nothing to do with it, any beautiful woman who has caught her man being indiscreet can tell you that. Look at poor Jennifer Aniston (although I don't feel that sorry for her because thats how she got him (Brad Pitt) in the first place) It happens."

Best thing I've read all day though I’ll never understand why Jennifer Aniston is considered hot. A friend of mine called her a 9 the other day

posted May 10, 2006 06:53 AM              

By the end however, she had become arrogant, self-absorbed and pseudo-confident al la Sex and the City (she could have been a fifth member). At this point she became a bit of a turn-off. I wonder if Brad thought the same? She isn't tat good an actress that this wasn't somehow reflected in her real personality.

Angelina on the other hand is unbridled strong feminity with no excuses. She just seems more natural...weird...but natural.

IMO only obviously WN.

posted May 10, 2006 07:05 AM              

Swerve:
<<Angelina on the other hand is unbridled strong feminity with no excuses. She just seems more natural...weird...but natural.>>
You forgot to mention her LIPS! LOL!
The one thing weird about Angelina is how did she get attracted to a Billy Bob Thornton. Must have fallen for the fake hard to get manipulation ?