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Author Topic:   Are Asteroids REALLY Important??
jane
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posted February 25, 2010 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Valus -

You brought up something about astrology that excites me. You said that asteroids don't reveal anything about ourselves that we can't already know from a thorough study of the traditional parts.

In a way, I think that's true. I agree because I think our entire chart is interconnected. We're not a sum of parts. Each part's meaning is crafted by our sum.

Really know my Venus and at the same time you will know my Sun, even if there's no aspect between them. The greater our understanding of our chart as a whole, the greater our ability to see the whole in each part.

I'll use my chart as an example. The first planet in my 1st house is Uranus.

It forms an exact square with my 10th house Moon.

Placement in the first says I'm independent, and I am. That square with my Moon shows that independence creates tension. Why would that be? For tension to exist, there's a conflict. So from looking at just my Uranus and its aspects, we know that I'm independent but want more than just that. Since it's square my Moon in the 10th house, we can say that my emotional nature wants to connect with the outer world (10th house). My heart wants to ground itself there, and Uranus in the 1st fights that.

Now if we pull back and look at the whole, we see that my Moon is trine Neptune. My Moon wants to merge with everyone.

So looking at my 1st house Uranus with an awareness of my Moon-Neptune trine, we can see that there's a conflict in me between individuality and universality.

This is further seen in my Nodes. My NN is in Virgo in the 10th house. My SN is in Pisces in the 4th house. Particular v. whole.

That Nodal conflict could play out in various ways, but once I throw in asteroids, the way I experience it becomes clear.

Eros is exactly on my SN. Amor is exactly on my NN (to the minute!). The conflict is me figuring out how to love.

My Pisces SN Eros wants to merge, even if doing so means losing my own particular truth. It's natural (SN) for me to erase boundaries and take on the other person's needs as my own.

My Virgo NN Amor wants to remain distinct. It's saying that love is a relationship, not a complete union that shatters individuality.

Since my Moon is trine Neptune, it finds the SN way easy. Since it's square Uranus, it finds the NN way a challenge. That indeed has been a top lesson I've needed to learn in life: to love the particular order of creation; to see distinction as something that allows for love instead of as a barrier to it.

The rest of my chart shows love/relating as a focus in my life/an area where I'm growing:

Sun cnj 5th house ruler
Chiron = Venus/Mars
Venus in Cap
Karma at 0 Libra
Pluto cnj Sun/Moon mp in Libra

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DD
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posted February 25, 2010 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jane,

like so often I completely agree with you.

(I was talking about the post before your last one)

Especially this one:

"That's how I see asteroids. They provide a more personalized description of who you are.

Who you are precedes you using astrology. Astrology then translates you into symbols. Those symbols don't create or determine you. They just reflect."

Raymond,

I think the Eris-NN might relate to the discord that is in this thread.

Babel quinkunx Mercury seems to relate to misunderstandings or rather "not getting" each other.

The harmonious aspects of Asteraude and Skepticus could reflect the "tame" tone of this thread (which I appreciate).
We may disagree, but unlike other threads, it`s comparably smooth.

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jane
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posted February 25, 2010 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I attribute any discord to Valus. The man has Sun cnj Uranus on his MC. His presence can't help but toss us all around.

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DD
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posted February 25, 2010 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am only saying:

asteroid Valusha sesisquare Mars.


Still - I consider this an interesting discussion, at least for the most part.

I don´t think we will come to an agreement, but it is very interesting to know other people`s opinions and arguments.

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katatonic
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posted February 25, 2010 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well speakiing of stew, when i make beef stew the main planets are beef, carrots, potatoes, celery and water. however i would not enjoy it very much without the asteroids cilantro, red wine, salt and pepper!

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jane
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posted February 25, 2010 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DD -

quote:
it is very interesting to know other people`s opinions and arguments.

I agree. I do get a warm fuzzy feeling from watching everyone do their thing.

I don't know how to respond to our constant mind meld. If I don't say anything, at least know that it's making me smile, every time.


iQ -
Thank you for the compliment, and please keep doing what you're doing. You gotta admit that your Mercury is unique. (Gem in the 3rd, unaspected.) The way you learn about the world is probably always going to look sketchy to many people. But I think you're genuinely inspired, and I've learned lots from you.

I wouldn't even have known to look at DEJ and NESSUS aspects if not for you!

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jane
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posted February 25, 2010 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Vapor -

I have things to say but I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date. Later!

AG -

quote:
I actually like Jane's anecdotal arguments better, though I kind of doubt those results are typical.

Are you calling me a freak?
You'd probably be right...

katatonic -
I agree. I'm definitely at the point now where if I was forbidden to use Karma, Juno, Eros and some other asteroids, I would feel like I was missing out on essential information.

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Glaucus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I attribute any discord to Valus. The man has Sun cnj Uranus on his MC. His presence can't help but toss us all around."

He has Sun quincunx Eris almost exact.


Eris is named after the Goddess of Discord.


Eris' co-discoverer Michael Brown said the following about naming Eris


"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect."


It makes sense for Eris to be about diversity,equality (especially consider its Persephone orbit and how its discovery led to Ceres and Pluto being equals in Astronomy),controversy,and discord.


I think some of the things that astrologers attribute to Uranus actually are Eristic things.


and look at what Eristic means in the dictionary.


eristic [ɛˈrɪstɪk]
adj also eristical
of, relating, or given to controversy or logical disputation, esp for its own sake
n
1. a person who engages in logical disputes; a controversialist
2. the art or practice of logical disputation, esp if specious
[from Greek eristikos, from erizein to wrangle, from eris discord]

Noun 1. eristic - a person who disputes; who is good at or enjoys controversy
controversialist, disputant
individual, mortal, person, somebody, someone, soul - a human being; "there was too much for one person to do"
contester - someone who contests an outcome (of a race or an election etc.)
accuser - someone who imputes guilt or blame
arguer, debater - someone who engages in debate
denier - one who denies
hairsplitter - a disputant who makes unreasonably fine distinctions
logomach, logomachist - someone given to disputes over words
obstructer, obstructionist, obstructor, resister, thwarter - someone who systematically obstructs some action that others want to take
quarreler, quarreller - a disputant who quarrels
crusader, meliorist, reformer, reformist, social reformer - a disputant who advocates reform
2. eristic - the art of logical disputation (especially if specious)
artistry, prowess, art - a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art"
Adj. 1. eristic - given to disputation for its own sake and often employing specious arguments
eristical
argumentative - given to or characterized by argument; "an argumentative discourse"; "argumentative to the point of being cantankerous"; "an intelligent but argumentative child"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eristic

I have a strong Eris influence myself with
Sun conjunct/oppose Eris Nodes (Geocentric,Heliocentric)with 10 minutes of arc as well as retrograde Eris-Chiron conjunction in Aries in 8th sextile Midheaven and North Lunar Node with corresponding Midheaven square Eris/Node midpoint - '08).
I also have Mercury in Scorpio in 3rd biquintile Eris - '06


I can definitely be controversial,argumentative. I definitely advocate reform in regards to neurodiversity,and that alone would get me viewed as controversial by people who don't share the same views about neurological/learning differences.

I am not a debater though, but I can get emotionally drawn into a debate as well as expressing divergent viewpoints can come across as debating. Of course, debating one's views is inevitable when they clash against other's views.


I believe that Eris could be co-ruler of Astrology, seeing how controversial the subject is and how there is much diversity,discord in the astrological community. There are a lot of astrologers that have attitudes about their astrological system being more valid than others. That's what Steven Forrest was addressing at the astrological conference. It must be a serious issue in the astrological community for him to point that out. He even believed that the astrological community lost ground and not gained ground during Uranus' transit in Aquarius.


Raymond


------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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raspberri
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posted February 25, 2010 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for raspberri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^lmao!

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Yin
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posted February 25, 2010 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I Valus.

Mostly blame my chart ruler (Uranus) for that. Just had to say it. Now, carry on.

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:39 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Jane,

You gave a competent analysis of some basic chart factors... then you said it wasn't enough.. so, you brought in Eros (!?!?).. to illustrate the importance of love matters. Why didnt you bring in Venus, lol? Or, at least, begin with Venus.

Your post began with Venus, when you said that a proper understanding of your Venus would illuminate your Sun and every other factor. But when the time came, you ignored Venus and leapt over to Eros. Why?

Show me your Venus -- sign, house, aspects.
I'll judge for myself how pertinent Eros is.

quote:
I attribute any discord to Valus. The man has Sun cnj Uranus on his MC. His presence can't help but toss us all around.

also:

Sun at 13'54" Scorpio
Eris at 13'53" Aries
("discord")

and:

Moon in Aquarius
Sun Parallel Uranus
Moon Parallel Uranus
Venus Conjunct Uranus

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:41 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Incidentally, if anyone thinks they can interpret the following configuration so as to throw light on my chart (which is not already thrown by the primary planets and points), I'd be very impressed:

Moon at 0 Aqua
Eros at 0 Scorpio
Orcus at 0 Leo
Chaos at 0 Taurus

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Yin!

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DiandraReborn25
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posted February 25, 2010 01:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
besides of all other examples i gave from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.....

as some of you know im currently dealing with hard times,financially included.

for quite some months now that ive been doing everything i can to sell some properties that my family has. it has been really hard due to the "aparent" crisis.


Yesterday,out of a sudden ( and afyer ive asked my Angels to help me) i received an email.

from who?

from a renewable solar system company that has won several prizes now,and that it is interested to buy our lands ( it has about 100 000m2 of area and it has great solar area).

Now....im utterly excited and i know that it were my dear and close Guardian Angels that sent me out this Gift ( even if nothing comes out of here i know that this is a sign...)

asteroid wise....do you want to know?

YESTERDAY

TR VICTORIA is cj my nGOLD


TR pLUTO RULER of my 2nd is cj IC
TR TYCHE opose venus ruler of my 8th or shared properties and finances
TR SUN7JUP/rulers of my 11th and 3rd were opose my sun
TR Urnaus is approaching my nAbundance
TR SOMA / portuguese word for value in money) was opose my Uranus

TR FORTUNA...approaching my NN/VESTA/PF....

"THE HEAD OF A ROBUST YOUTH CHANGES INTO THAT OF A MATURE THINKER"

It is time to use mature thinking, using your intellect and intuition. Allow wisdom to come through. There can be a feeling of one's mindset changing and growing. Responsibilities are to be taken on board

TR ABUNDANTIA/MOON ruler of my MC are cj my MC

TR Gold is opose Tr Uranus

tr felicitas cj my IC...

sabyan "PHEASANTS DISPLAY THEIR BRILLIANT COLORS ON A PRIVATE ESTATE"

IT HAS to do with luxury,wealth.. Enjoying the riches the environment offers.

TR NN "Shared endeavor. Knowing when to pass on responsibilities. Having to wait your turn. Inheritances. "

TR URANUS "A NEW MOON REVEALS THAT IT'S TIME FOR PEOPLE TO GO AHEAD WITH THEIR DIFFERENT PROJECTS "

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:49 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Most of the questions I've posed
and the arguments I've presented
have been ignored.

I find that very telling.

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Glaucus
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posted February 25, 2010 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Uranus first entered Aquarius in the 20th Century
on April 1, 1995

The Lunar Nodes were stationary in 5'37 Scorpio/Taurus oppose the Heliocentric Eris Nodes in 5'49 Taurus/Scorpio


furthermore Jupiter was stationary in 15'23 Sagittarius


this suggests that Uranus in Aquarius was supposed to indicate a period of making diverse associations/connections with others and broadening one's views

but it could also be about discordant associations/connections with others and being judgmental

Raymond


------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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Glaucus
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posted February 25, 2010 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Sun at 13'54" Scorpio
Eris at 13'53" Aries
("discord")"


It doesn't have to be about discord. That's like saying Pluto is underworld and Neptune is sea because those were the respective domains.

Your Sun quincunx Eris could also be the possibility of being equality-oriented, tolerating/accepting diversity,and considering other's viewpoints, agreeing to disagree


Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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DiandraReborn25
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posted February 25, 2010 02:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Valus

no one here who believe and know´s asteroid´s importance will feed your need for arguments and proofs.

as we all know you re an astrologer.one from the old times that doesnt really stands to see other brilliant souls like IQ discovering and prooving (with real life experience situations and people) that asteroids are crucial to have a detailled analysis of charts wether natal,sinasty,events etc.....

i bet that you dont even believe in past lifes do you?so how can you really perceive and understand how asteroids really work?hihihi

ive only discovered some of my past lifes ( and ive dreamt with it too) after i ve analysed in detail my charts,with asteroids. i knew what to look to,and so it was not all that difficult.

we must take a deep look at ourselves and know what we want to look for.dont be afraid of anything.Or specially if we do have any beliefs that are throwing us distant of the great discovery of Who we Are,then it is just a proof of maturity and awareness,that we throw away all of our false beliefs...our Egos in fact...and just step into the apparent whole/precipice of the UNKNOWN...YOU will find more that you could imagine.

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Glaucus
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posted February 25, 2010 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In regards to

the transneptunians , Orcus and Chaos

Orcus - A lord of the underworld. Orbital Period: 248.01 yr.

Positive: a person of one’s word, challenges broken promises, aligned with a spiritual creed, accountable for personal thought, word and deed

Negative: hypocritical, fault finding in the ways of others, blame assigning, ducks responsibility for word and actions, unable to keep promises

Mundane: contracts, oaths to organizations, religions or countries, creeds

Ceremonial: declaring faith, writing creeds, channeling the latest cosmic downloads and formatting it into doctrine


Chaos: Before all that is, creator of Gaia and Ouranous (Uranus). Orbital Period: 312.18

Positive - orderly in the face of confusion, goes with the flow, mellow and non-stressed

Negative - worked up, paranoid, projecting fears, assuming disaster is a step away

Mundane - fractal patterns and analysis, big bang theory, chaos theory,

Ceremonial - meditating upon de-materialization, cleansing and re-materializing, dismemberment (shamanic reconstruction)
http://www.philipsedgwick.com/Centaur_TNO/KuiperKeywords.htm


Philip Sedgwick's keywords are not just based on mythological name. They are based on its physical,orbital features. He also gets clues from the sign of its north node and perihelion at the time of its discovery.

He has suggested names of centaurs that were accepted by astronomers. He and other astronomically oriented astrologers had a hand in naming some centaurs including Nessus which was the first centaur and the first solar system object whose name was proposed by astrologers.


Name

The naming of Nessus is an interesting break from tradition. Three astrologers were independently studying 1993 HA2 to see if it had any astrological significance. These were Zane B. Stein in the USA, and Dieter Koch and Robert Von Heeren in Germany. In separate letters to astronomers David L. Rabinowitz, Alan Stern, Jim Scotti and Dr. Brian Marsden, these astrologers suggested to name the body after the mythological centaur Nessus.

Dr. Marsden gave his support to the suggested name, and recommended it to the IAU. This name was approved, and 1993 HA2 was officially renamed 7066 Nessus on April 22, 1997. This naming was an unprecedented cooperation between astrologers and astronomers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7066_Nessus

I have been following Zane Stein and other astrologers like him since 2000.


Raymond


------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 02:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

DiandraReborn25,

Hi.

Do I know you?

Do you know me?

You certainly seem to think you do.

You just made a dozen assumptions
about my character and spiritual maturity.

For the record, I'm not an astrologer, and I'm not of the old school, or any school. I do indeed believe in past lives, and a whole lot more than that. Neptune, ruler of my South Node, is in the 12th. If asteroids are indispensable to you, it might help you to know that Atlantis is also in my 12th, exactly squaring Pluto. What else.. I don't eat animals.

*yawn* I don't have to go on, do I?

Alright then, a few more things
which you might find relevant:

I've spoken to a number of reputable psychics who recoiled in surprise upon tuning into my energy -- "Holy **** ! You are an extreeeemely old soul! I rarely if ever get to hear from someone on your level of receptivity" is something I've heard a few times now. Also, "You have been everything, from prince to pauper, artist to explorer, etc. You have the ability to relate to anybody." And, "I'm getting an image of Einstein. I'm seeing that you are a genius or prodigy, but not in physics.. something else,". Metaphysics, I would say. I have an innate attunement to metaphysical laws, and a deep appreciation for the masters of thought; I'm particularly close in my thinking to a man named Novalis (called "The Prophet Of Romanticism"), and I suspect I may even be the reincarnation of Novalis -- among other things, my Draconic Chart shows a striking resemblence to his Natal Chart. If you would like to see what a mind and soul like mine are capable of, feel free to browse through my aphorisms and philosophical fragments here:
http://uranianheart.blogspot.com/2009/07/grains-of-salt-aphorisms-and-fragments.html

quote:

Valus
no one here who believe and know´s asteroid´s importance will feed your need for arguments and proofs.

I suspect that you are correct.
They will not, because they cannot.

quote:
as we all know you re an astrologer.

LOL

quote:
one from the old times that doesnt really stands to see other brilliant souls like IQ discovering and prooving (with real life experience situations and people) that asteroids are crucial to have a detailled analysis of charts wether natal,sinasty,events etc.....

On the contrary.
I would love to see IQ "proving"
that asteroids are crucial,
if such were, in fact, the case.

quote:

i bet that you dont even believe in past lifes do you?so how can you really perceive and understand how asteroids really work?hihihi

You have a curious laugh.
But the causes of your laughter
are more curious still.

quote:
ive only discovered some of my past lifes ( and ive dreamt with it too) after i ve analysed in detail my charts,with asteroids. i knew what to look to,and so it was not all that difficult.

My method is somewhat different. I pursue the strains of thought that flit across my mental landscape.. I playfully and painstakingly develop the inner life of my mind and soul.. the objects of my interest give startling clues and signs to my past lives, -- and perhaps even to contemporaneous and future lives, as well. No symbolism in my chart could be more convincing to me than the dynamic life of my soul with which I am in constant rapport.

quote:
we must take a deep look at ourselves and know what we want to look for.dont be afraid of anything.Or specially if we do have any beliefs that are throwing us distant of the great discovery of Who we Are,then it is just a proof of maturity and awareness,that we throw away all of our false beliefs...our Egos in fact...and just step into the apparent whole/precipice of the UNKNOWN...YOU will find more that you could imagine.

Beautifully expresed.

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Valus
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posted February 25, 2010 03:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thank you, Glaucus.

I'll get back to you shortly.

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Glaucus
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posted February 25, 2010 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I thought that 3rd Agreement of

Don Miguel Ruiz's 4 Agreements

was

Don't Make Assumptions


I don't think that we should make assumptions about what Valus (nor anybody else for that mater) believes in or not


There can be asteroid astrologers that don't believe in reincarnation.


Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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DD
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posted February 25, 2010 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Valus,

maybe noone feels the need to prove anything to you?


Well, you asked the question if asteroids are really important.
I think you are the only one who can answer that question for yourself.
If you want to know if they are important, why not make a list of significant dates in your past, and ponder about which asteroids would fit the symbolism of that date best, and then look up the transits and Solar arcs to see if these asteroids made significant aspects?

Or you could also look at any given date, that was significant to you, and see if the asteroids reflect what has happened.

Personally I would only look at very narrow orbs in these cases, especially of asteroids to the basic chart factors, which for me are Sun, Moon, ASC and the nodal axis; for relationship matters I would also consider Venus (and maybe Mars, if there were sexual overtones).
For events with karmic implications I would look at Saturn and Pluto.
Yet, I think, Sun, Moon, ASC and NN will suffice.

(but that is my personal preference)


Some time ago I have had an "interesting" experience with Pholus.
I discovered that I have had strong aspects with Pholus in a certain synastry, and was thinking, that Pholus might prove important in transits of significant dates regarding this guy and me, too.
So I sat down (before looking at the transits) and wrote down the pivotal dates (I am keeping my diaries close with me), and then looked up the transits of Pholus.
At every single of these dates Pholus played a role:

1st: TR Pholus opposing my Sun
2nd: Tr Pholus opposing my Moon
3rd: Tr Pholus square my Moon
4th: Tr Pholus conjunct my ASC
5th: Tr Pholus conjunct my ASC
6th: Tr Pholus conjunct my ASC
(these dates were in different years though)
7th: Tr Pholus conjunct my NN

On each of these dates Tr Pholus was making an exact strong (conjunction, opposition, square) aspect to what I consider to be "core-objects" - Sun, Moon, ASC, nodal axis.

It was the only thing that these dates had in common; at least I haven`t found another pattern like this till now. Maybe it does exist, and I just haven`t seen it.

It convinced me, that it might be worth having a look at Pholus; for me at least.
Of course Pholus is a centaur, and not an asteroid.
It is a slow moving object, that is true, too. BUT these dates were spread over a time of nearly 20 years, and the Pholus aspects were exact on these dates (under 1 degree).


I have also once made a little research on relationships that had lasted a long time and compared the frequency of some asteroid`s aspects as opposed to aspects to Sun, Moon, Venus and DESC ruler.

The surprising thing was, that Eros and Juno made the most aspects along with Venus.
Now it would be interesting to find a synastry of a long lasting relationship without Venus aspects and only with Eros or Juno aspects for example. Just to see if they can work consistently on their own, or if they are just a "supporting" influence.


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AcousticGod
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posted February 25, 2010 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have Eris (12*10) conjunct Chiron (12*52) in Aries.

Good article, MVM.

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mermaid26
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posted February 25, 2010 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mermaid26     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Valus, you remind me of a modern day Kahlil Gibran. Sabian for Aqua 0 is "an old adobe mission in California." My Venus is at 0 Aqua. I personally think you're living your soul's purpose to reform, inject beauty, and provoke thoughts with your high intellect. What a lovely "tempest in a teacup" you created with this thread. I personally think God is smiling in favor at you.

...from "Alice in Wonderland"

"I never heard of 'Uglification,'" Alice ventured to say. "What is it?"
The Gryphon lifted up both its paws in surprise. "Never heard of uglifying!" it exclaimed. "You know what to beautify is, I suppose?"
"Yes," said Alice doubtfully, "it means-to-make-anything-prettier."
"Well, then," the Gryphon went on, "if you don't know what to uglify is, you are a simpleton."

I hope Yin will agree.


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