posted February 24, 2010 02:45 PM            

deleted details, but from 2 sexual abuse situations:

Synastry -
his PLUTO cnj her PERSEPHONE (0*)

Transits during event -
NESSUS retro and opposite that synastry cnj (0*)
DEJ cnj her ASC (0*)

-------
Separate event. Transits:

posted February 24, 2010 05:08 PM            

I find majority of people have a hard time separating their biased-personal tastes/ego from pure aesthetic judgement. A good example for myself would be Brad Pitt. Personally I dont find him attractive at all & I would give him a personal rating of 6/10. However as a technical artist, I could see & understand why people obsess over him. He is in reality still much better looking than the general masses...which would then deserve an 8.5/10 from me. People always argue that Art/beauty is subjective. With creating art, I would say that is true up to 15% (one's personal tastes). Truth is there are technicalities/accuracies behind it with the remaining 85% (unbiased). I think people in general try too hard to justify what creates, "beauty," without really understanding the technicalities involved. Automatically assuming Libra Asc, or Sun+Goddess aspects = goodlooks (or even the lack of Sun/goddess aspects but yet still beautiful). Personally I dont think so...I think it's a combo of overall chart, nature (genes) vs. nurture. Even most astrology books make an effort to point out not all Libra Asc are necessarily goodlooking, but simply will be charming enough to attract others. I checked my chart & most of my goddess aspects are sq/opp Sun/moon/venus. Ontop of that, my Venus is already taking a beating from many hard planetary aspects. Judging only from my chart, I would probably look a 3/10 with all these malefic aspects.

Anyways, I like IQ's analogy of the planets being the base (shape/size/colour) of a cake, and asteroids the icing & further flavoring. Also I think it helps determine how we individually experience the 'taste,' of the cake. However, we will never know the exact tablespoons of ingredients used in the recipe. I guess only god or our oversoul would know the exact amounts of ingredients mixed into our chart to produce a certain taste. This is why it's so difficult to decipher exact measurements in what creates physical beauty using astrology *shrug*.

IQ: [Aphrodite square Sun means Beauty is the cause of challenges to the Core Personality.]
-Yes, this is exactly how I experience the taste of this aspect's frosting.

IQ: [1. Beauty/Attraction, Fine Arts]
-Yup, this made A LOT of sense to me too. I dont know why everyone is only focusing on Beauty in terms of looks. Attraction; could be like Libra Asc, not necessarily goodlooking, but still attracts people. Fine Arts, definitely!--all those supermodels/actresses are in Artistic related careers.

posted February 24, 2010 09:02 PM              

quote:

---

iQ, you're demonstrating why you need to be careful with asteroid interpretations.

Mira Sorvino had the movie title conjunct Fortuna, and you said that was a sign.

Now you're saying that Pierce Brosnan has his part/role conjunct transitting NN at the release date as the justification for believing asteroids. Shouldn't his Fortuna be involved possibly?

Then Sean Bean has his role transitting his Actor asteroid.

Three different justifications for similar results, and they're not even remotely similar. Aphrodite/Fortuna, Chiron/NN, Zeus/Actor. Different combinations altogether. No thread of consistency except that the role makes a transit or is transitted by something (or in Sorvino's case it was all just natal, right?).

---

AG

posted February 24, 2010 09:27 PM              

You said nothing in Gene Simmons's chart indicated his sexual exploits... I responded with an interpretation of the basic elements of his chart:

quote:

---

Mars ruling the Ascendant
and tightly opposing Jupiter,
and with Pluto in the 5th;
Mars and Pluto share rulership
of Scorpio on the 8th

---

Any comment?

For the record, I'm not saying that you cannot get valid "hits" using asteroids. I am saying there is no need to resort to them. Everything the asteroids tell you can be found in the basic elements (signs, planets, houses). That is my position. Also, I think there is more possibility for error, when you use more objects.

You, for instance, interpret things after the fact -- you already know what you are looking for, and then you "find" it, just as AG illustrated. But can you use the same evidence to find something before the fact? I doubt it.

You see Chiron conjunct something -- anything -- and you interpret it the same way you would, regardless of what body is making the conjunction. If there are no conjunctions, you find an opposition, or a difference asteroid, or something else, to make your case. All after the fact.

And you employ dozens of astrological bodies in order to find these aspects -- dont you realize that, if you use enough objects, there will always be a conjunction you can point to, lol?

Can you tell us why Brosnan's role transited his NN, while Sean Bean's transited his "Actor"? What if it transited their Karma, or Mercury, or any of several dozen other points you give significance to? Would it make any difference at all, or would you see it all as proof of the accuracy of asteroids?

posted February 24, 2010 09:59 PM            

I used

February 19, 2010

4:36 pm

New York,New York

I checked the following asteroids

Asteraude - asteroid

Babel - as in the city that was being built but led to many people speaking in different languages causing confusion.....

Skepticus - skeptic

Valusha - Valus

and the transneptunian dwarf planet, Eris - diversity, equality matters, controversy,discord

Asteraude in 5'17 Pisces
sextile Moon in 5'37 Taurus

Skepticus in 1'52 Cancer
trine Sun in 1'08 Pisces

Babel' in 14'05 Cancer R
quincunx Mercury in 14'09 Aquarius

Valusha in 18'03 Pisces
sextile/trine Mean Lunar Nodes in 19'00 Capricorn/Cancer
sesquiquadrate Mars - '30

Eris in 21'05 Aries
trine/sextile Ascendant/Descendant axis in 20'22 Leo/Aquarius
square True Lunar Nodes in 20'12 Capricorn/Cancer

also

Moon in 5'37 Taurus
conjunct/oppose Heliocentric Eris Nodes in 6'09 Taurus/Scorpio

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted February 24, 2010 10:14 PM            

the same arguments that astrologers have against asteroid astrology are the same arguments that the scientific communities have against Astrology.

Tower of Babel in the Astrological community has been going on for quite some time.

Even Steven Forrest pointed out the issue.
starting at 46 minutes into the conference speech - The Future of Astrology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWN8kk1uVhM&feature=PlayList&p=EF0FDC9E4FC8FFA E&index=0&playnext=1

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted February 25, 2010 12:14 AM            

I actually like Jane's anecdotal arguments better, though I kind of doubt those results are typical.

posted February 25, 2010 01:52 AM            

Plus, I really don't think enough has been studied about astrology in general to make bold, fatalistic statements about *anything*, actually...

However, I think if it works for you (as Jane's eloquent examples have shown), then it works for you. That's great. Awesome.

Ultimately, I think of asteroids as nice filling. Cool details. Little connections to validate bigger connections.
Icing on a cake, if you will.
Tasty, but too much of it can make you sick.

posted February 25, 2010 02:11 AM            

I sometimes feel like the interpretations given are a tad fatalistic-sounding, rarely combined with some intuition, and taken within the context of an entire chart.
But even taking ONE aspect/asteroid is not looking at the whole. It's like seeing a painting and zoning in on one small part of it and making a statement.

The map is not the territory.

To me, it's not an issue of skepticism even, as much as an issue of being locked into a box. It's like I can't breathe when I read some of the stuff put out there. The cookbook interpretations, be it with asteroids or whatever. There's no room for personal diversity with this stuff. No room for a person to be a person. It's all way too black and white, and NO THANKS.

posted February 25, 2010 02:49 AM            

Asteroid Stew
Zip Dobyns
We are past the 300 count on our new asteroids as this is written, and more being calculated almost daily so I will not bother to count until we finish the current burst of activity. The mixture of names justifies the title of this article. Ruth Dewey chose most of them, and they range from mythological to historical to geographic to fiction to modern slang. But the article name could also refer to my mental stewing about the whole baffling phenomenon. I know we live in a mental world, that mind is the creative power behind the physical manifestations. But I still feel a sense of awe when we run the asteroid “Sagan” and find it conjunct natal Saturn in the tenth house in the chart of the man for whom it was named. He was born and became a famous astronomer long before the asteroid was discovered. He is not only ignorant of astrology; he puts it down whenever he has a chance. How did his fellow-astronomer manage to select that particular asteroid to be given his name; the asteroid in the house of and conjunct the natural ruler of his career? Of course, it was his career which made him worthy of having an asteroid named after him.

Another recent chart in my files is of a woman born in Latvia. The country was absorbed by Russia, but my subject escaped in time. In her chart, her natal Sun is conjunct the asteroid “Latvia” while “Russia” and “Urania” (which is much like Uranus) are conjunct on her natal Descendant: open enemies and sudden upsets, in this case. Psyche, which I find often associated with a feeling of personal helplessness, is conjunct the south node of the Moon in Aries in a female patient who has lupus, a debilitating, eventually fatal illness. Huberty, the mass murderer of San Ysidro, California, had Siva on his Mars, Nemesis, Fama, and Apollo (the latter two suggesting fame or prominence) clustered on his Neptune-IC. All aspects listed are within one degree orb, though a group such as the preceding one may include a series of overlapping aspects in which the first and last of the series are separated by more than one degree.

In the drug-related death of a young man, his father’s chart included progressed Atlantis (so often found associated with power-struggles) conjunct the progressed Part of Death (Placidus cusps), square Jupiter in the eighth house (one of the keys to death) and quincunx Saturn in his local fifth house (connected to children, among many other meanings). A chart for the first famous woman bull fighter has Apollo (fame among other Sun meanings) conjunct her Sun-Neptune conjunction in Leo. She also has Urania (urge to be different) conjunct her first house Jupiter-Pallas in Libra.

A woman who was kidnapped and then ransomed, only to be murdered some years later by unknown assailants for unknown reasons, had her first house Mercury conjunct Isolda, Anubis, Epimetheus, and Bourgeois. Isolda, a figure in the legends of King Arthur, died for love, but was precipitated into the love by a potion she drank. Anubis and Osiris are associated with the world of the Dead in Egyptian mythology. Epimetheus looked back rather than forward like his famous brother, Prometheus, so is associated with lack of foresight. Bourgeois refers to the middle-class. The woman’s family had money, but was definitely middle-class. Other aspects in the chart included the first house Moon conjunct Medusa which I am watching to see whether it represents fear; America conjunct the Descendant; and Osiris conjunct Neptune in the eighth house.

The recent hijacking of an Egyptian plane over the island of Milos, Greece which resulted in major loss of life had a chart with Psyche conjunct the Antivertex, Fanatica and Gyptis conjunct Ceres, trioctile Anubis, Pandora conjunct Mercury, Libya (suspected of facilitating the hijack) octile the mean south node of the Moon, Lilith (which seems very Plutonian) conjunct Neptune and quincunx the Ascendant, Nemesis conjunct the Descendant, plus the Sun applying to Osiris and the Moon applying to Anubis. The latter two aspects became exact by the time the plane reached Malta where most of the deaths occurred.

According to our newspapers, the initial conference between Reagan and Gorbachev at the Geneva Summit was scheduled for 12:20 P.M., Swiss time. The Sun at that moment was conjunct the MC and the asteroid, Russia, in addition to Roma and Virginia (the state in which the Pentagon is located.) This collection was also conjunct Reagan’s natal Ascendant if my birth time for him is accurate. The asteroid “Washingtonia” was just below the horizon in the sixth house conjunct Gorbachev’s natal Mars. Sphinx was on the Descendant, a sign of the secrecy maintained during the conversations? Osiris was conjunct Saturn; the association with the power of those two men and the potential of death is pretty obvious. Yalta was conjunct Jupiter, and many thought of the parallels and differences between this meeting and the famous session at Yalta involving Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin. Kassandra, the psychic who could only predict negative events and was doomed to never be believed, was conjunct the first house Moon, opposite America. Juno, partnership or power-struggles, was conjunct Apollo; fame again. Helio (another Sun equivalent) was on the south node of the Moon. Eros (love or the lack of it) was on Pluto (again, cooperation or power-struggles). Fanatica was on Ceres, and Stalingrad was on the IC or fourth house cusp. If we can judge the importance of the event by the number of one-degree-orb conjunctions, this meeting would qualify as very significant.

Sometimes an asteroid will be prominent in a related series of charts. Hephaistos was the Greek name for Vulcan, the blacksmith of Olympus, who forged the thunderbolts of Zeus. Hephaistos was associated with craftsmanship, mostly making weapons, and with fire and metal, including the volcanic fires and metal under the earth’s surface. His skill and his lameness sound like Virgo, but the rest of the associations are more Scorpio, including one of its negative potentials of power-struggles with associates where there should be cooperation. The mother of Hephaistos, Hera (Juno), rejected him, and his wife, Venus (Aphrodite) was never faithful to him.

In the Libra Ingress chart calculated for Bogota, Colombia, Hephaistos was conjunct the Ascendant, and the asteroid, Columbia, was square Mars. Horoscopes drawn for the Sun’s entrance into the four cardinal signs are interpreted as keys to the following three months for the area where the chart is located. When the communist guerrillas attacked the Supreme Court, resulting in the deaths of half of the Judges, Hephaistos was conjunct the IC, considered a death point like the eighth house cusp. Columbia was conjunct the Ascendant-MC midpoint, which some astrologers consider the most important of the midpoints in a chart. At the time reported initially by the newspapers for the volcanic disaster in Armero, Colombia, said to have killed 23,000 people, Hephaistos was conjunct the MC.

The attention of the world focused on the tragedy was symbolized in the horoscope by Aten (an Egyptian Sun god) conjunct Saturn; Helio (a Greek Sun god) conjunct Pluto; and Apollo (another Greek Sun god) conjunct the IC. Yes, Atlantis was there too, square Uranus. There were many more aspects involving the new asteroids, one of the impressive ones being Karl Marx on the MC when the guerrillas attacked the Supreme Court. Isolda was also on the IC with Hephaistos; Fanatica was conjunct Ceres; Panacea, Vaticana, East Point, and Jupiter were all conjunct each other and square the nodes of the Moon; Attila was conjunct Neptune; Tristan (who died for love, along with Isolda) was on the south node of the Moon; Tezcatlipoca (an Aztec god who required a human sacrifice every day) was on Juno which I am increasingly finding more Scorpio than Libra; while Lilith (similar to Pluto), Skuld (one of the Fates), Quetzalcoatl (another Aztec god) and Pittsburghia (another Pluto) were with Columbia on the Ascendant-MC midpoint.

Then there is Jesse Helms, conservative Congressman from North Carolina. How did he manage to be born when his Antivertex was conjunct Carolina? Or how did an astronomer manage to name that asteroid Carolina? He has many other interesting asteroid aspects, especially involving current patterns in 1986. Progressed Urania conjuncts his natal MC and progressed Saturn, (for changes in his power or other authority figures?); progressed Aesculapia (healing or health) and progressed Nemesis (one of the Fates) are on his Antivertex; progressed Hidalgo (power or authority figures) and Attila (named for a conquering tyrant) are on his progressed north node of the Moon; progressed Medusa is on Jupiter; progressed Hygiea (daughter of Aesculapia, and also a healer) is on Mercury; progressed Carolina squares Vesta for years, and progressed Atlantis is on his Moon, also for years. The patterns will be present through 1986, and they certainly fit a possible health challenge involving an authority figure. I have been finding both Hygiea and Aesculapia involved in cases of health and death due to illness. The patterns could point to Jesse’s personal problems, or to his “Boss,” the President.

One more interesting political figure before we close, (for the readers who are still with us), is our Defense Secretary, Casper Weinberger. Though he has some interesting aspects in his natal chart, I was particularly curious about his progressed chart for the spring and early summer of 1986, the time I am expecting a major development for the U.S. Weinberger will have progressed Merlin and Siva conjunct his MC; Apollo just past it; progressed Moon square progressed Atlantis, Osiris, and Klotho (one of the Fates); progressed Hygiea conjunct progressed Juno square progressed Sun; progressed Kassandra and Atropos (another of the Fates) conjunct Mercury; and many more.

Weinberger’s traditional aspects are also appropriate for a major event at that time. His progressed Antivertex opposes natal Mercury while his progressed local Antivertex opposes progressed Mercury, ruler of his seventh house, hence a possible separation from a partner. His progressed MC is trioctile the eighth house Neptune while progressed local MC opposes progressed Neptune and natal Saturn. We could read these aspects as a possible separation from an authority figure, among many possible details. His progressed Ascendant is quincunx natal MC (similar to the aspect just described) and progressed local Ascendant is quincunx progressed Mercury, coming to the local IC, hence opposite local MC, repeating the same message. The progressed eighth house cusp conjuncts progressed Mercury while the local progressed eighth house cusp conjuncts natal Ascendant. Progressed Part of Death is trioctile progressed Jupiter, ruler of the Ascendant, while progressed local Part of Death is on the third house cusp (media?) quincunx natal Saturn and progressed Neptune in the eighth house.

Details in the lives of individuals or of countries are always an educated guess, as I have said repeatedly, but the coming year promises to be an interesting one. The new asteroids continue to amaze and fascinate me! When does anecdotal material become significant? How many coincidences can we tolerate before we change our view of the nature of the world? One would think that when there are over 300 variables in a chart, there would be something everywhere, but it does not work like that. There will still be large gaps while several asteroids bunch up in massive groupings. At this point, everything is up for grabs. Anecdotes are not scientific, but the cumulative weight keeps on growing. http://www.ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/1985/sag/astmix.html

If you go to her site,you will see more articles on asteroids. You also see her children's articles too.

this is Zipporah Dobyn's Asteroid-World Contents....when you read this stuff,you will be amazed at the synchronicities of asteroids. 1986 to 1999 http://ccrsdodona.org/m_dilemma/awindex.html

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted February 25, 2010 02:59 AM            

Good to see you posting again!
I don't think I've talked to you much on here, but you always seemed cool.

Me lovezz your Aries Moon!

My ex nick names were : CoralFrequency and Lauren.. you may remember one of them.

quote:

---

I know it makes me sick sometimes reading page after page, thread after thread, post after post, of asteroid listings and how they must mean something is 'fated', or whatever.

---

Same here. It is a bit much.

There are specific asteroids I find useful and I do check those. But I couldn't imagine listing dozens and dozens of them.

I agree with DD - regarding those asteroids I've looked at (Karma, Valentine, my name asteroids, Eros & Psyche) - The aspects are strangely exact at times.
In synastry I have Karma (Pisces) exactly opposite Karma (Virgo).. both at 4'54 degrees (that's way too close LOL).

quote:

---

Oh, and I respect what IQ does - his heart is in the right place, and I've seen how much time he takes in helping others who very much need help. I know he's helped me with the meanings of certain asteroids on a couple of occasions in the past. And for that I am grateful

---

posted February 25, 2010 03:14 AM            

Yeah, I couldn't keep away from this subject The Aries moon, the Moon/Uranus rebellion, the Jupiter Aqua/T-square....it's all churning

posted February 25, 2010 03:28 AM            

<<
But can you use the same evidence to find something before the fact? I doubt it.
>>
I do this all the time for my clients with Asteroid Astrology. I used TYCHE to predict a date for a real estate deal for a client, because it worked for me as well.
I have warned many about Nemesis aspects and Nessus aspects. Some friends have happily chosen Venus conjunct/sextile/trine HYGIEA dates for healing and successful surgery.

Give me your chart details and I will know 100 times more about you and your past lifelines using Asteroids than you can ever hope to know using standard astrology. You can never get this info with standard astrology, it is like forever throwing darts in a dark room just because you know for sure that there is a dartboard somewhere. I have chosen to throw darts in the center of the dartboard, in a very well lit room.

posted February 25, 2010 03:31 AM            

quote:

---

I don't see asteroids - or even astrology in general - as The Way.

---

Nether do I ^ - I think that type of thinking is a bit closed minded..

To believe *anything* is the beginning or end all of *anything* else.. is akin to placing ones brain in a safe and throwing away the key.

I think we get bits and pieces of information everywhere we look (if our minds are open to the information). Sometimes we get "lucky" and the pieces intertwine and form interesting patterns.. I guess that is when we feel we learnt something new.. something significant.

posted February 25, 2010 03:51 AM            

quote:

---

Jane, my respect for you has gone up 10 fold.

---

IQ - Join the respect-for-Jane-up-10-fold club! I joined years ago
I'm up to the 100-fold club these days.

posted February 25, 2010 05:50 AM            

(Yes - You guessed it - I only just read that!)

I didn't realize it was that serious when you first mentioned it.
How lame!

lame lame lame

A knowflake (can't remember who) was criticizing the *ahem* visits to the bathroom during dinner etc.. and saying it was *sick* - on the other thread.

Well I'd much prefer that ^ to ... this situation - yikes

posted February 25, 2010 11:21 AM            

Specification doesn't = determinism.

Instead it's like when you look at, say, your Sun. You could look at just the sign. Or you could add in aspects and house placement. Those other details specify how your particular Sun works, how you're different from other suns of your own sign. Then you look at the rest of your chart for a further specification of YOU.

That's how I see asteroids. They provide a more personalized description of who you are.

posted February 25, 2010 11:40 AM            

I am not sure if Zip had Bush's accurate birthtime.

Diana,

I agree with your explanation.

hey ......what did people think about the asteroid chart that I did for the beginning of this thread?

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"