posted May 22, 2015 09:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Hi SaturnFan,

I didn't mean to put you through all this trouble! but, thank you for taking the time. Hopefully, the info will be of use to other people also.

---

posted May 22, 2015 08:13 PM            

On the other hand, I do feel quite different from most of the population, could benefit from having 28 days to make major decisions, and tend to feel like I work backwards. Another thing is I also feel like I give back what I receive, so perhaps I am a Reflector after all.

As for my sense of self, I likely do have a stronger sense of identity than the average Reflector. However, I experience some problems with my identity just like I imagine most Reflectors do. Once I know something about myself, it stays part of me though.

posted May 23, 2015 01:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
v2t,

Thanks again ~ I watched 25 minutes of the Generator webinar and he (Christopher Powell) did say some things that resonated with me.

But I am confused. He said that if a Generator doesn't feel really convinced about HD, he or she should probably abandon it.

That's where I stopped watching.

Perhaps I don't feel "sold" on it because the information is sequestered and treated like top-secret cult material, no offense intended to anyone...but the similarities between HD and Scientology freak me out.

I feel like, I just want to know all the basics about this system up front before I can decide whether or not to invest my time and money in it, but the way HD is presented raises more questions than it answers.

Questions like:

- What is the special relationship between the two gates that form a channel? What is the reason for their pairing?

- What exactly are they referring to when they say that this system incorporates genetics?

- How exactly does the I-Ching fit into this?

- Why does Ra Uru Hu say that we should investigate and experiment to our heart's content, yet there is apparently some kind of ban on releasing the answers to these rudimentary questions?

- Why do I get the eerie feeling like I'm the only one who's wondering about this stuff?

Here I am, showing you the expected "Frustration" response of a Generator.

And SaturnFan, if you're reading and can answer any of those questions for me, or tell me where to find them, I would really appreciate it, but I understand if you'd rather not. Perhaps I am just not looking in the right places.

I'm enjoying HD for the most part or I wouldn't be posting here, so I don't mean for my criticism to sound like ingratitude. The mental stimulation has been enjoyable.
I just have these "cult" alarms going off.

---

You're not alone. I looked into HD tonight at Venus' request and I don't trust it. I'm going to learn it for as long as Venus wants to talk about it but it has shot off my alarms too.

In an e mail I mentioned to her I don't trust any authoritative source. The whole Ra disappeared, and then reappeared enlightened after an encounter with the "Voice" turns me off. The claim that Ra knew about Neutrinos 11 years before science proved it turns me off until I see some great evidence to back up this grand claim.

I also don't care for Ra himself. His mannerisms and what I read in him sets me off in a negative way.

But I have a fixed Sun, Ascendant, and Merc with everything else Cardinal - I'm not convinced by an authoritarian teacher easily without great evidence.

posted May 23, 2015 03:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:
You're not alone. I looked into HD tonight at Venus' request and I don't trust it. I'm going to learn it for as long as Venus wants to talk about it but it has shot off my alarms too.

In an e mail I mentioned to her I don't trust any authoritative source. The whole Ra disappeared, and then reappeared enlightened after an encounter with the "Voice" turns me off. The claim that Ra knew about Neutrinos 11 years before science proved it turns me off until I see some great evidence to back up this grand claim.

I also don't care for Ra himself. His mannerisms and what I read in him sets me off in a negative way.

But I have a fixed Sun, Ascendant, and Merc with everything else Cardinal - I'm not convinced by an authoritarian teacher easily without great evidence.

I'm a Generator too

---

This is how I look at this. HD isn't a religion, the founder isn't God to me, but I thank him for what he brought through. He and I aren't interacting and I don't have to deal with him. I'm in no danger of ? whatever (fear, fear, fear). What's that word that Donna Moss kept repeating to Josh Lyman in The West Wing when he threatened to fire her? Impervious!

posted May 23, 2015 04:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Yes, sooner or later you exhaust all information sources and have to pay yourself into more knowledge.

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I love your finesse in making the point.

quote:

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The very best descriptions on Gates however is the the book co-authored by the founder of Human Design - If you ever decide to spend money on Human Design I'd suggest this because it provides detailed information on all the basics. Everything else is someone else's interpretation.

http://www.amazon.com/Human-Design-Definitive-Science-Differentiation/dp/0615552145

---

SaturnFan, the I Ching and Gene Keys books on this website sound really interesting. Would you recommend reading HD Definitive as a basic grounding first?
http://www.loveyourdesign.com/gates/

posted May 23, 2015 08:46 AM            

quote:

---

You can imagine Manifestors as the Pharaohs of the ancient Egypt and Generators as all those multitudes who built the pyramids.

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Wow that is so helpful to my self-esteem! LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:
The whole Ra disappeared, and then reappeared enlightened after an encounter with the "Voice" turns me off. The claim that Ra knew about Neutrinos 11 years before science proved it turns me off until I see some great evidence to back up this grand claim.

---

I feel the same way. Also, I've read that it took him several years to put Human Design together after the encounter with The Voice. I get the sense that he wants his material to be treated as if it was entirely channeled from the Voice even though it wasn't.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing any HD material published in the 90's. I just scrolled through all the search results for Human Design at amazon, and all the books were published from 2010 til now.

And that makes me wonder if the similarities between HD and the Secret Language books I mentioned in previous pages here (which were published in the 90's) are both true and reinforcing each other, or merely coincidental, or a case of uncredited borrowing of material. I mean these are the only two systems I've seen that divide each sign into 5 +/- day sections. What explains that?

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
I haven't found an answer to this yet - unless I've missed something in my 2 books, as didn't read them linearly. If there's any logic behind that, I suspect it will be in the astrological sign of each Gate.

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Do the books get into astrology at all?

edit~

Found this: "The inner wheel represents the 12 signs of the zodiac. Although Human Design uses the same zodiacal wheel as astrology, it is interpreted differently." http://humandesign.net/basic-concepts.html#9

I just don't understand how differently they can interpret it, while maintaining a real connection. My studies so far make me wonder if they just overwrote traditional astrology.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaturnFan:
According to HD, we are receiving neutrinos through each Gate which is activated by a planet. The Personality Sun Gate at the top of your chart will contain 70% of these neutrinos, and the rest is distributed between the other placements/ gates. These neutrinos manifest in our DNA, hence the name Human Design.

---

It's an intriguing concept, and I'm open to anything, I'd just like to see more information up front. I feel that the basic mechanical principle shouldn't be that hard to convey, and I'd like to know whether it's the quantity or quality of neutrinos that affects the DNA. And has anyone ever compared the DNA of people with various sun signs, and found we are genetically distinct according to our sign?

Wow THAT could blow the lid off science.

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
From the book by Ra Uru Hu:

quote: The ancient I'Ching to Book of Changes, one of the first books ever written, reads like a dictionary of archetypical wisdom on the seasons of life. What makes the I'Ching so extraordinary in this synthesis, however, is not its philosophical or ethical text, but rather the amazing mathematical structure of its 64 hexagrams. Specifically, the 64 numbered sections you see in the outer ring of the Mandala represent the 64 hexagrams of the I'Ching. Each of these Hexagrams, pictures around the outside of the wheel, is made up of a particular combination of six broken (yin) or solid (yang) lines.

---

Thank you for taking the time to copy all of that. Perhaps I phrased my question wrong. I was wondering if there is a direct correlation between the Gate number and its meaning, and the hexagon number and its meaning, so that Gate 1 reflects the principle of Hexagram 1?

ETA: Nevermind ~ I see the correlation now, I just have to compare the Gates/Hexagrams to traditional readings for those areas of the zodiac.

----

Here's a good article on the I Ching and DNA: http://taobabe.wordpress.com/dna-and-the-i-ching-the-connection/

Excerpt:

quote:

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Martin Schönberger, a German scientist who wrote the book The I Ching & the Genetic Code, recently discovered that the two Codons which contain the genetic-chemical message “to stop” have the same numeric structure of hexagram 63, After Completion, and the Codons which, so to speak, act to say “Go” on a genetic level, correspond to the opposite hexagram 64, Before Completion. In the DNA they serve as punctuation between code sequences. In the I Ching, we have hexagrams # 63 and # 64, which serve the same purpose.

---

That would correlate well with the placement of Gate 63 in the Head Center. If one is following the energy rising up from the root and making its final stop around the top of the head, one can see how "After Completion" might fit. And Gate 63 is a Pisces gate, so again, there is a kind of obvious interpretation or educated guess one can make: the I Ching stops where the DNA stops where the head stops where the astrological year stops. Perfect!

But then if you look at the other Gates in the Head Center, there is no clue about why they are there. It just seems arbitrary.

But I will keep researching that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaturnFan:

quote: The 64 hexagrams around the outer wheel, translated into the BodyGraph as Gates, can be used in Human Design to thematically understand or interpret our genetic imprint, and provide very specific detail about the characteristics that make up each and every one of us.

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It's intriguing but annoyingly elusive.

On the humandesigninfo website:

quote:

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There are 384 Lines in total when you consider there are 64 Gates each with six possible lines. The enigmatic sentances related to each line can be read in Ra's central text, The Rave I'Ching. Further elucidation is available in two volumes of The Line Companion book, where Ra described subtleties in the line interpretations. However this book is only available to those who have completed the Living Your Design Course, the Rave ABC Course and both Rave Cartography courses and have been admitted to the PTL1 (Professional Training Level 1) through a certified Human Design Analyst teacher.

---

=( That's where it gets to be like Scientology.

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
The HD professional community is greedy, I think this is it.

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LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
While HD can be valid, and a real goldmine for exploring synastry, energy etc., I feel it should be approached with independent thinking, instead of relying on the current HD 'guides' out there.

---

Yes. I'm still intrigued and exploring.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaturnFan:
HD is presented as very prescriptive, this might be one of the reasons. The majority of articles and videos online are definitely with a written-in-stone mentality. As this concept is developed further, I hope the 'preachers' will become more flexible about it

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posted May 23, 2015 10:03 AM            

I'm not trusting enough to separate the salesman from the product. I'll get in the car, drive it, and if it works, good. But if I don't trust the salesman then I assume there's something wrong somewhere I'm not catching and I'll leave the car behind even if it drove well.

But I'm not in the habit in tearing down things people believe in so if it works for you, great.

I'm learning HD and I see no reason how it is greatly superior to astrological synastry. What mechanism in HD makes you think it is better?

@Faith

posted May 23, 2015 10:05 AM            

Don't mind me, I'm mainly talking out loud.

Anatomy of a Generator
*Must have defined Sacral Center*

Sacral Center:
Gate 5- December 4-8
Gate 14- November 17-22
Gate 29- August 17-22
Gate 34- November 23-27
Gate 27- April 22-27
Gate 59- August 23-28
Gate 42- April 11-16
Gate 3- April 17-21
Gate 9- November 28-December 3

Here are the nine channels that can define the Sacral Center. Bold numbers are Gates within the Sacral Center, hexagrams from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hexagrams_of_the_I_Ching

Sacral to G Center Channels:

1) 5-15
(December 4-8/June 19-24)
(Gate of Waiting/Gate of Modesty)
(Week of Originality/Cusp of Magic)
Channel of Rhythm
SL synastry

Hexagram 5: Hexagram 5 is named xū, "Attending". Other variations include "waiting", "moistened", and "arriving". Its inner trigram is ☰ (qián) force = heaven, and its outer trigram is ☵ ( kǎn) gorge = water.

Hexagram 15: Hexagram 15 is named qiān, "Humbling". Other variations include "modesty". Its inner trigram is ☶ (gčn) bound = mountain and its outer trigram is ☷ (kūn) field = earth.

*Comment: Gate/Hexagram 5's association with waiting, attending, and heaven/water have no obvious connection to Sagittarius. Yet the reading for a person with a defined Channel of Rhythm matches the spontaneity/spiritual bent of Sagittarius tempered with the feeling of Gemini/Cancer Cusp.

2) 14-2
(November 17-22/May 4-8)
(Gate of Possession in Great Measure/Gate of the Receptive)
(Cusp of Revolution/Week of the Teacher)
Channel of the Beat
SL synastry

Hexagram 14: Hexagram 14 is named (dŕ yǒu), "Great Possessing". Other variations include "possession in great measure" and "the great possession". Its inner trigram is ☰ (乾 qián) force = heaven, and its outer trigram is ☲ lí radiance = fire.

Hexagram 2: Hexagram 2 is named kūn, "Field". Other variations include "the receptive", "acquiescence", and "the flow". Its inner trigram is ☷ (kūn) field = earth, and its outer trigram is identical.

*Comment: I'm noticing that the Cusps are heavily represented in these pairings, possibly to increase the number of elements in a mixture (fire with air/water in the Rhythm Channel; water/fire with earth in the Beat Channel.)

3) 29-46
(August 17-22/September 21-26)
(Cusp of Exposure/Cusp of Beauty)
(Gate of The Abysmal/Gate of Pushing Upward)
Channel of Discovery
^^ Errors in text...Gate 29 is in the Sacral Center, not Gate 46.
SL synastry

Hexagram 29: Hexagram 29 is named (kǎn), "Gorge". Other variations include "the abyss" (in the oceanographic sense) and "repeated entrapment". Its inner trigram is ☵ (kǎn) gorge = water, and its outer trigram is identical.

Hexagram 46: Hexagram 46 is named (shēng), "Ascending". Other variations include "pushing upward". Its inner trigram is ☴ (xůn) ground = wind, and its outer trigram is ☷ (kūn) field = earth.

*Comment: Hexagram 29 is water/water ~ no obvious correlation with the Leo/Virgo Cusp. However, this is considered a secretive cusp in the SL system, which matches the idea of an abyss. Hexagram 46's earth/wind elements match the Virgo/Libra cusp. The Cusp of Beauty can be said to be "ascending" in the sense of, pursuing perfection, or rising from the Virgo earth into the Libra air. As in the channels above, there is a mixture of three elements here. The common element in all the Sacral Channels so far is water. Which makes sense since the Sacral Center is a fertile center.

And the immediate, gut responses of Generators would then correspond with "activated" water/intuition.

I guess.

Sacral to Spleen Channels:
1) 34-57
(November 23-27/October 8-13)
(Gate of Power, Gate of The Great/Gate of Intuitive Clarity)
(Week of Independence/no match)
Channel of the Archetype

Hexagram 34 is named (dŕ zhuŕng), "Great Invigorating". Other variations include "the power of the great" and "great maturity". Its inner trigram is ☰ force = heaven, and its outer trigram is ☳ shake = thunder.

Hexagram 57 is named (xůn), "Ground". Other variations include "the gentle (the penetrating, wind)" and "calculations". Both its inner and outer trigrams are ☴ ground = wind.

*Comments:

-This channel is fierce: "Keep in mind, however, that this is not a channel to empower others and keep in mind, as well, that in the sense of the not-self it is the most arrogant of all channel configurations.In a pretty bold fashion this channel proclaims, 'I'm the one that has the power to survive'. And it couldn't care less if you can or not. You barely exist to them."

-I can see how first decan Sag is "The Power of the Great," (heaven/thunder) and I can see how mid-Libra is "Intuitive Clarity." (gentle wind/calculation). The Gates are semisquare to each other if you count the first day of each against the other, second day against second day, etc. So perhaps that's why this cooperation turns selfish?

"The 57 operates on an acoustic level to screen all sounds for an ongoing sense of harmony." (Libra) The 34, as a Generator Gate, responds with great power (Sag) to implement things according to acoustic changes that may affect one’s realm of harmonic well-being."

2) 27-50
(April 22-27/October 20-24)

Sacral to Root Channels:
1) 42-53
(April 11-16/July 7-12)

2) 3-60
(April 17-21/January 17-22)

3) 9-52
(November 28-December 3/June 25-30)

Sacral to Solar Plexus Channel:
1) 59-6
August 23-28/September 15-20

----------------------------

posted May 23, 2015 10:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:
But I'm not in the habit in tearing down things people believe in so if it works for you, great.

---

Ditto

I don't mean to tear anything down, I'm just testing the structure to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Ra Uru Hu said we should. Don't want to let him down....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:
@Faith

You're funny. I like your sarcastic humor.

---

posted May 23, 2015 03:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Open centres pull external energy in. But your defined Centres, are a magnet to open Centres...

---

SaturnFan, so, in synastry, would this mean people with a majority of undefined centers would or may be susceptible to attractions to multiple partners? They're so open to incoming thoughts and emotions of other people, it seems they would be susceptible to being drawn to many. Or, am I missing something.

quote:

---

While you have 8 defined centres, you still have a lot of open Gates. You will attract external energy through them, and while it will not alter the expression of your defined centres, it will still bring great potential to raise your awareness, and expand on the understanding of your own 'defined' energy.

---

This sounds more like a mutual activation rather than a one way dynamic: an undefined center being influenced/affected by a defined center. Is this correct?

quote:

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You already noticed the significance of your triple split definition. People complete your split definition through your open Gates 11, 23, 12, 36 and 44. These Gates will be very significant for you, and if you check the HD charts of key people in your life, you'll most probably notice that they've had some or even all of them defined.

---

Good suggestion. It's hard for me to understand this conceptually without the visual cues, so I'll be looking at the charts. Thanks, SF!

quote:

---

Going back to your Root Centre, you have only 1 defined Gate there, and 8 open ones. This is a very significant centre for you. If someone activates a few gates/ channels there, they can bridge your Solar Plexus and Splenic Centre.

The Identity Centre is also important in your chart. You have only 2 defined Gates there, but they have an incredibly important role in your entire design, as you already pointed out. The rest of them are open, inviting external energy to help you expand your sense of self and purpose. I think this is a beautiful configuration for the Identity centre, because it attracts a lot of energy but it still shields you from losing your sense of self.

---

I see, it's not just defined vs. undefined centers, it's important to consider these vis-a-vis the gates within the center also.

quote:

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About how this can influence your love relationships,
People will definitely sense your intensity, and some of them will shy away from it. The first thing you should keep in mind, is that this isn't personal. Open centres amplify the energy of defined centres, so your energy hitting a few of someone's open centres can make them go into an internal overdrive when they are around you.
How they handle it, is their problem entirely. Your design is such, that it is supposed to heavily influence other people.
If they shy away from you, then they have a lot of internal conditioning to sort out anyway.

A self-aware partner however, could amplify your energy in many, many positive ways. They wouldn't have to be aware of Human Design per se, but aware that when they are around you they have an influx of thoughts, ideas, sense of purpose, emotions, energy (depending on their own open centres), and they enjoy this energising electrical connection. Open centres are always attracted to their corresponding defined centre, so your design is indeed very attractive. It depends on the other person how will they internalise and manifest the energy they receive from you. If they are aware that these surges of energy are coming from you, and they consciously act on them in a positive, creative way, then you would be fulfilling the highest expression of Human Design synastry.

I hope I'm making sense. My main point is, your 8 defined centres are not a bad omen romantically. They just mean you impact people strongly, and your energy might filter out 'the strong ones' without you consciously having to

Also, since you already have a lot of open Gates in your defined centres, they will be attracting other people's defined Gates as well. Your blessing here is, that this energy will most likely not alter your internal balance. Other people's energy will however expand your awareness of which ever centre it touches through a defined Gate.

Also, 8-1 and 9-0 synastry pretty much ensures that neither person in the couple will feel the need to 'step out' of the relationship to get something they feel is missing. Since you have strong Pluto influence, I imagine you value fidelity and loyalty - your HD chart almost guarantees it

---

SF, this gets back to my question about people with most or all centers undefined. I'm thinking of people who naturally gravitate to polyamory, for example. There's so much here to contemplate and become aware of! It seems to me that it takes tremendous self-awareness to see how HD plays out in synastry and at the same time that HD can be a discipline for achieving self-awareness. Astrology also does this, but it looks like from what you write here that HD does it with much greater definition and precision. Again, in my opinion, this is because all the concepts are anchored in and expressed via the centers. Thank you!

posted May 24, 2015 04:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:
@Peony

I'm not trusting enough to separate the salesman from the product. I'll get in the car, drive it, and if it works, good. But if I don't trust the salesman then I assume there's something wrong somewhere I'm not catching and I'll leave the car behind even if it drove well.

---

Koho, thanks for clarifying and joining the conversation! My MO is different. When introduced to new knowledge, I tend to have intuitive responses to it. It's the same with HD.

quote:

---

I'm learning HD and I see no reason how it is greatly superior to astrological synastry. What mechanism in HD makes you think it is better?

---

By the way, I’m learning too. This may take awhile because you're asking about two profound systems with varying levels of complexity. But I want to try and answer your question in a way that I feel it deserves.

I have this amusing image of you and Faith as Saturn-Neptune (the skeptic) on one side of the table, and me as Jupiter-Uranus on the other side. Transiting Jupiter is conjunct my ASC and I'm feeling the Jupiter-Uranus trine!

First of all, I'm not saying HD is "greatly superior" to astrological synastry or astrology in general for that matter. But even at this early stage, what I am struck by immediately is that the knowledge is grounded in the centers. The centers or “chakras” are a multidimensional blueprint or spiritual anatomy of the human being. They’re the key to our evolution as spiritual beings. HD claims to map out that anatomy and so far, I find it accurate. Astrology doesn’t have this component or even consider it.

The centers define our state of evolution, which cannot be determined by the astrology chart, or at least not by itself. When we astrologers talk about the chart, this or that planet in a house or aspect, we’re talking about it as though we’re all at the same level! From my perspective, that right there is a problem because it allows for a greater margin of error. But, when the centers are factored in as in HD, well that allows for a whole new layer of precision and accuracy.

I had an experience just recently of discussing a chart with a friend who is also an astrologer. I talked to her about one of the manifestations of the woman’s Saturn-Uranus conjunction. It turns out the woman had no interest or concern about the political and economic order or changing things in the outer world. She was from a tiny town on Vancouver Island, worked for parks and recreation, and her interests revolved around her her job and people close to her. That’s where having a person’s design and profile, as revealed by the centers, as well as the gates and channels, helps to reduce the margin for error.

As you know, a planetary archetype can manifest in many different ways. An astrologer can be absolutely correct in describing say a Saturn transit and yet be wrong at predicting how that transit will manifest in a particular person’s life.

This brings me to something that is very relevant to what we’re discussing, both with regard to evaluating natal charts and transits: chaos theory. Chaos theory envisions the world as dynamic, yet predictable. So does astrology. “…when it comes to making astrological predictions, there seems to be a limit to the accuracy one can expect to achieve. Events seldom turn out precisely as foretold but, on the other hand, they will often come close. It's almost as if the outcome had certain parameters within which it could manifest and then within those parameters, an unlimited set of choices - a controlled randomness. Astrological prediction suggests that there is a subtle, perhaps not so subtle, structure hiding behind the static of outward appearance.”

[http://www.chaosastrology.com/dntoerth.htm]

Yes, and among astrologers these “structures” are archetypal, that is, planets and signs.

So, because of the nature of astrology and how it works, it is precise, but only up to a point. One of the things that I find exciting about HD is it extends and magnifies the accuracy and precision of astrology.

Since this is getting long, I’ll talk about synastry in a later post.

posted May 25, 2015 07:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by peony:
SaturnFan, the I Ching and Gene Keys books on this website sound really interesting. Would you recommend reading HD Definitive as a basic grounding first?
http://www.loveyourdesign.com/gates/

---

Hi Peony,

posted May 25, 2015 07:36 AM            

quote:

---

You can imagine Manifestors as the Pharaohs of the ancient Egypt and Generators as all those multitudes who built the pyramids.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Wow that is so helpful to my self-esteem! LOL

---

It's an insulting analogy, and sadly quoted in almost all articles about Generators and Manifestors I've come across. However, I find it more relevant to Manifestors than to Generators and their relationship to authority. Generators have constant access to energy and can get things done. Misdirected manifestor/ authoritarian energy can take advantage of that. But it doesn't mean that Generators accept authority blindly - in fact, I've seen the exact opposite in all Generators I know (not just you and Koho ). Manifestors however, have a very tangible inclination to run the show. I know 4 Manifestors very well (2 are family members), and all of them feel, and have told me numerous times, "If I could run the world, it would be such a better place". Putin, Hitler, Stalin are all Manifestors too. The more arrogant and self-centred Manifestors can genuinely feel justified in 'taking over the world'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Also, I've read that it took him several years to put Human Design together after the encounter with The Voice. I get the sense that he wants his material to be treated as if it was entirely channeled from the Voice even though it wasn't.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing any HD material published in the 90's. I just scrolled through all the search results for Human Design at amazon, and all the books were published from 2010 til now.

---

I never liked the guy either, as I mentioned earlier in this thread - apart from him just rubbing me the wrong way, the way he presents things in some of his videos is too black-and-white. As in "do this, and if you don't you can't ever, ever be happy". However, I've tested HD against myself, family and friends, and it just works. If his story is true (as in, he really had an encounter when this system was communicated to him), then he is merely a messenger - definitely not a guide/spiritual leader as he makes himself out to be. If he spent the 90s 'borrowing' bits and pieces from different concepts (astrology, I'Ching etc.) and putting them together into 1 system, which happens to be very accurate, and then announcing he was visited by a Voice - then he definitely played his cards wrong, because he doesn't appear very credible to most of us. Either way, this irritating individual provided a system, which seems to be working for some reason. I'm also curious why it works... After spending 1 year on HD, I didn't come close to answering this question.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
=( That's where it gets to be like Scientology.

---

posted May 25, 2015 07:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by peony:
SaturnFan, so, in synastry, would this mean people with a majority of undefined centers would or may be susceptible to attractions to multiple partners? They're so open to incoming thoughts and emotions of other people, it seems they would be susceptible to being drawn to many. Or, am I missing something.

---

Hey Peony - based on what I've read, if a person has many open centres and enters a relationship which activates/ defines most of the centres then they would not need to 'search' for energy elsewhere. But if their partner only activates a few centres, leaving 3, 4 or more undefined, then the relationship will be more 'open'.

This can manifest in many ways, depending on which centres are left open. One manifestation could be polyamory, another one could be strong inclination for mental stimulation which can come from the career, a third one could be putting great value on the friends' circle and assigning equal priority to one's friends as to one's romantic partner. It can manifest in many ways.

My parents' synastry for example is such that all of their centres are activated except for the Head and Ajna centres. In their case, this manifests as both of them looking for mental stimulation in their own time as a hobby - both are incredibly passionate about reading, but they never analyse or discuss what they've read with each other. For another couple, this type of synastry could mean that they never stop talking about the books they've read. I think purely from an HD perspective, the Gates play a big role in these small differences.

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
SF, this gets back to my question about people with most or all centers undefined. I'm thinking of people who naturally gravitate to polyamory, for example. There's so much here to contemplate and become aware of! It seems to me that it takes tremendous self-awareness to see how HD plays out in synastry and at the same time that HD can be a discipline for achieving self-awareness. Astrology also does this, but it looks like from what you write here that HD does it with much greater definition and precision. Again, in my opinion, this is because all the concepts are anchored in and expressed via the centers. Thank you!

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posted May 25, 2015 08:20 AM              

SaturnFan and Peony, how familiar are you with the sciences behind HD? I don't know anything about I Ching. I've heard of Chakras before, but haven't studied the Chakra system either. I am familiar with Kabala and the Tree of Life. Even after years of exposure, I only dare to claim familiarity with Qabalic mysticism.

Do either of you have an interest in, or find it necessary to have a deep understanding of the sciences behind HD?

From Astrology to organized religion interpretation makes the difference between offering guidance or leading astray.

It sounds ambitious, studying the sciences behind HD...the tradition of scholarship I am accustomed to requires this depth of study.

Lol, my mind just travels- we could open up an HD university, with Koho the professor of I Ching, Faith and Peony professors of Hinduism, Buddhism, the Chakra system and prolly a bunch of other stuff. Finally, one day, students meet SaturnFan and her HD teaching staff. Lol. I'll do the books 😊.

But really, what are your thoughts on the need for understanding of the foundation of HD? Do you already feel like you have a solid grasp?

posted May 25, 2015 10:41 AM            

For me, both the scientific foundation and the 'relevance' to real life are important. I spent most of my research on the latter - i.e. testing whether HD works. Once I felt I had the basics there, I started feeling more drawn to exploring the foundation. Before HD I used to be into Sun Sign astrology, and it was HD that propelled me into researching astrology in-depth. Once I get a 'handle' on it I can see myself spending a few years exploring I'Ching and the rest of the systems too. Right now, I don't have enough knowledge on these systems to say how well HD combines them - this is why I was excited to see how this forum will feel about it, since people here have great knowledge not only of astrology, but of other similar concepts.

posted May 25, 2015 12:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Hi Peony - this is an intriguing question!

According to a few sources, he received the HD concept over the course of 8 days in January 1987. He was born on April 6, 1948, in Montreal, Canada.

I ran 4 transit charts for him - for January 10, January 15, January 20 and January 25 and the main patterns I can see have an amazingly strong correlation with the Uranus-Neptune conjunction you mentioned.

trUranus and Neptune conjuncted his Vertex and Jupiter. He says he received this knowledge suddenly, out of the blue, which corresponds great with Uranus conjuncting his Vertex by 0 degrees during January. Neptune was closer to his Jupiter - I see it as a powerful channel of higher spiritual knowledge.

His Jupiter and Vertex in Sag form a Grand Trine with his Sun and Moon in Aries, and his Saturn/ Pluto/ Mars in Leo.
Uranus activated his entire Grand Trine, as it was still in Sagittarius in 1987. Neptune was in early Capricorn, widely squaring his Sun.

Also, he has a natal Uranus-Jupiter opposition. So Neptune/ Uranus were opposing his natal Uranus as well.

Throughout January 1987, Mars was transitting in Aries (forming a trine with trUranus and Neptune) and towards the end of the month it conjuncted his Sun and Moon. So I imagine these 8 days occurred in the last part of January.

It definitely appears that he was a messenger on behalf of the powerful Neptune/ Uranus conjunction.

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SaturnFan, according to Chetan Parkyn, he received the transmission beginning on the night of January 4 through January 12, 1987.

BTW, Parkyn's story of how he got into HD is very interesting. Did you know he's married to an astrologer?

Do you have a TOB for the founder? I'd like to run the chart again now that we have the exact dates.

posted May 25, 2015 01:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
SaturnFan and Peony, how familiar are you with the sciences behind HD?

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Not familiar.

quote:

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I don't know anything about I Ching. I've heard of Chakras before, but haven't studied the Chakra system either. I am familiar with Kabala and the Tree of Life. Even after years of exposure, I only dare to claim familiarity with Qabalic mysticism.

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I've used the I Ching as a tool for many years, and am familiar with the 64 hexagrams.

I've studied and done research on the chakras. They are an integral part of a music workshop I teach. It's why I recognized the significance of them in the HD system.

Kabbalah is great love of mine, ever since I came across it. I always wanted to meet a teacher and many years later, I was fortunate to meet him and a small circle of his students.

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Do either of you have an interest in, or find it necessary to have a deep understanding of the sciences behind HD?

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I understand the Western world view and the importance that people born and educated in the West place on science. I was not born in the West, and although I was educated here science doesn't have the authority that it does for so many. Science is not immune to its own dogmas and conceits, as heretical as that may sound. I'm into metaphysics and mystical traditions both East and West.

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From Astrology to organized religion interpretation makes the difference between offering guidance or leading astray.

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I suppose like anything that's new, a certain skepticism or criticism is to be expected, along with a human tendency for self-aggrandizement and distortion of the original purity of the transmission. This is inevitable in that Beriyah down to Malkuth an admixture of light and dark forces hold sway.

I'm where SaturnFan is on this. It works.

quote:

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But really, what are your thoughts on the need for understanding of the foundation of HD?

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Of course, foundation is always important! Intuitively, I feel it's no coincidence that, except for the science, what I've studied is the foundation of HD. The books on the I Ching I came across online sound very interesting and I want to delve more deeply into the hexagrams.

quote:

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Do you already feel like you have a solid grasp?

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Of the foundation? Yes, except for the science. Of a system of this complexity and depth? No way.

posted May 25, 2015 01:41 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Hey Venus!

For me, both the scientific foundation and the 'relevance' to real life are important. I spent most of my research on the latter - i.e. testing whether HD works. Once I felt I had the basics there, I started feeling more drawn to exploring the foundation. Before HD I used to be into Sun Sign astrology, and it was HD that propelled me into researching astrology in-depth. Once I get a 'handle' on it I can see myself spending a few years exploring I'Ching and the rest of the systems too. Right now, I don't have enough knowledge on these systems to say how well HD combines them - this is why I was excited to see how this forum will feel about it, since people here have great knowledge not only of astrology, but of other similar concepts.

What I can say with certainty, is that HD is worth the research, because it urges us to explore different concepts and their possible connection and inter-play. However, it is not worth spending money on courses, 'locked' knowledge, even readings. There seems to be a small clique of HD professionals who see themselves as guardians of divine knowledge, which you can only access through money - I don't see what possible information they could share, which we can't arrive at independently Maybe they should advertise better.

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Love your response SaturnFan. Maybe I'll draw up a curriculum for myself, because I am just overwhelmed by all of the information. Are we sure there isn't such a thing as a Generating Projector? Peony is making me wonder!

posted May 25, 2015 01:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
SaturnFan, according to Chetan Parkyn, he received the transmission beginning on the night of January 4 through January 12, 1987.

BTW, Parkyn's story of how he got into HD is very interesting. Did you know he's married to an astrologer?

Do you have a TOB for the founder. I'd like to run the chart again now that we have the exact dates.

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Interesting! I just checked the introduction section in the book he co-wrote (I always skip the introductions ) and it says there that he 'encountered the Voice' on the evening of January 3, 1987. He was in Ibiza, Spain at the time.

There is no TOB, but his HD chart is published in the book and it corresponds exactly with his chart on the link below. So it's safe to assume the TOB in the link is correct (and my original source was wrong, he was born on April 9 not April 6).

So the information we have is:

Time of Birth: 9 April 1948 00:14 EST / 05:14 GMT | Montreal, Canada

'Voice' Encounter: 3 or 4 January 1987 (in the evening), Ibiza

Time of Death (it's in the book): 12 March 2011 05:40am (no location mentioned)

I don't know much about Parkyn - I'll read more about him. How great that he's married to an astrologer!

posted May 25, 2015 02:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Interesting! I just checked the introduction section in the book he co-wrote (I always skip the introductions ) and it says there that he 'encountered the Voice' on the evening of January 3, 1987. He was in Ibiza, Spain at the time.

There is no TOB, but his HD chart is published in the book and it corresponds exactly with his chart on the link below. So it's safe to assume the TOB in the link is correct (and my original source was wrong, he was born on April 9 not April 6).

So the information we have is:

Time of Birth: 9 April 1948 00:14 EST / 05:14 GMT | Montreal, Canada

'Voice' Encounter: 3 or 4 January 1987 (in the evening), Ibiza

Time of Death (it's in the book): 12 March 2011 05:40am (no location mentioned)

I don't know much about Parkyn - I'll read more about him. How great that he's married to an astrologer!

http://humandesignsystem.com/archive/charts/HuRaUru.pdf

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Great, SF. Thanks so much!

If you're short on time...long story short, Parkyn went to India and wound up at Osho at Rajneesh's ashram. There, Osho advised people that had questions about their personal life to get a "shadow reading." Parkyn said he had to do it. In that reading, it was predicted that his awakening would come later, and that he would be introduced to a system that he would master and teach.